This site is longer open for comments. It remains
simply as an archive of the discussions that took place
in the hopes that it might still help someone find
religious freedom.
I’ve been struggling—to find topics for this blog, to maintain my interest in all things Armstrong, to find time to care.
Truth be told, to care.
Jared said it best in a recent comment:
[A] moribund XCG is [not] entirely a bad thing either. After all, there’s only so much one can say about Armstrongism before you’ve said it all. (Source)
I don’t feel like I’ve said it all—there are thousands of words that could still be written about the phenomenon of Herbert Armstrong and the sect he formed. Yet, I really no longer have the interest or time to write anymore words about it.
I feel like Chicken Little, for our common XCG sky will continually fall. David Pack will talk about his web site statistics until the day he dies. Rod Meredith will provide critics with still more reasons to call him Spanky until the day he dies. Those in the upper echelons of the dwindling WCG will continue to talk about their amazing transformation until the day they die.
But I will not be commenting on them at that point, and I certainly won’t be commenting on them when I die.
About six months ago, I started preparing a final post, but I kept putting it off. I thought, “Maybe I’ll just write a little here, a little there,” for a while. Several have noticed and commented on this, and I have remained silent as to the cause of this dip in output.
My initial draft of this post might provide clarification:
Certain things in life force us to see things in a different perspective. Births, deaths, marriages, divorces, conversions—these are the kinds of things that make us stop and reflect on where we are, what we are, and most importantly, what we’re doing with the short time we have on Earth.
We have twenty-four hours in a day. We work at least eight of them; we sleep six to eight of them; we wash, shave, cook, eat, clean, drive, exercise and a million other forms of maintenance for another three or four a day. That leaves us with precious few hours a day for ourselves.
What do we do with that time?
Until recently, I spent time looking at, analyzing, and even mocking the beliefs and actions of a group of people I no longer have anything in common with.
Recent developments in my life now make that a less-than-ideal way to spend my free time.
The “certain event” I was referring to was the birth of my first child.
Since then, I’ve been of thinking about what I want my daughter to know about my own religious past. Truth is, I want her to know as little as possible. Because of shame? Embarrassment? Certainly not. I don’t want her to know for the simple reason that it no longer impacts my life. I can’t see much positive coming from me ever going into any detail with her about what I used to believe, about what her grandparents used to believe, about the fact that a true handful of people in the world still believe it. I don’t believe it, and that’s that.
And so, to quote one of my favorite authors:
“The time has come,” the Walrus said,
“To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings.”
To talk of many things—but not the XCG. And not here. Some might be wondering whether this signals the end of my presence on the XCG scene. It does. In fact, I doubt very much that I will even “lurk.” As a famous, oft-misquoted teacher once said, “It is finished.”
I appreciate all the support I’ve received during this little two-and-a-half-year adventure. I thank all the fellow contributors who, throughout these last nearly thirty months, have helped to make the discussion here a little more balanced. I am grateful to all you regulars. You really kept the site going.
Most of all, I’m heartened by some of the comments of the past, folks telling me that I have helped them in some way. I appreciate you sharing those thoughts, for it gave me a certain joy that I will truly never forget.
But the time has come.
Best wishes to all, ill wishes to none, and I leave with the hope that if we ever meet again, we’ll have so much more to talk about than the XCG.
Gerry Flurry likes to talk about how the Protestant daughters of the Whore of Babylon are going to be rejoining the Whore any day. They’re getting out their eyeliner and fishnet stockings, so to speak.
And then he writes about how the Pope has been offending people left and right lately:
London’s Telegraph newspaper reported, “Christian denominations outside Roman Catholicism are either defective or are not full churches of Jesus Christ, the Vatican has reaffirmed. A 16-page document released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict xvi once headed, described Orthodox churches as true churches, but said they are suffering from a ‘wound’ since they do not recognize the primacy [state of being first!] of the pope.
“The document, approved by Pope Benedict, went on to say the ‘wound is still more profound’ in Protestant denominations. ‘Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress … it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of “church” could possibly be attributed to them,’ it said. …
“While there was nothing doctrinally new in the document, it nevertheless prompted swift criticism from Protestants, Lutherans and other Christian denominations” (July 11). But the criticism was anemic compared to the pope’s scathing condemnation of their religion. The reason Protestants revolted in the first place was the corruption inside the Roman Catholic Church.
The pope can’t see how the Protestants could even have the title of “church” attributed to them! Quite an outrage coming from a church with such a bloody history.
This document criticized Orthodox churches almost as severely.
Other religions have a history of being afraid to criticize a powerful Catholic Church. And that situation is only going to get worse, as the Catholic Church rapidly grows in power and influence. (Source)
What, the RCC is going to offend everyone, and then they’re going to go running back to the Whore’s embrace?
Just like most things in Armstrongism, it makes no sense.
I just noticed—for all of David Pack’s bragging about his little web site and how supposedly cutting edge it is, it doesn’t even have an RSS feed that I can find…
David Pack is an Apostle. The Apostle. We all know that, and any of us who doubt it will quickly be embarrassed as his prophetic interpretations begin coming to pass.
In the meantime, we have more proof that Mr. Pack is who he says he is: the increasing parallel of his life to that of The Great Apostle, Herbert Armstrong.
Herbert Armstrong’s wife died before The Work was complete. And now, sadly, Mr. Pack’s wife has died.
The only differences are:
The cause of death. Mrs. Armstrong died of a bowel blockage, while Mrs. Pack died of cancer. However, in his sermon “At the Red Sea” (Download), Mr. Pack speculates that it was indeed cancer that caused the bowel blockage. This would only make sense, as God is the God of Dualism.
The time remaining until the end of the age. Mr. Armstrong worked another 19 years before he died, and The Work was still not complete. Mr. Pack will certainly not be toiling away at The Work for another 19 years. Jesus Christ will have returned long before then. In fact, Mr. Pack has recently informed us that time remaining may now definitely be counted in “single digits.”
Other than those two differences, most things line up perfectly.
The ironic thing is that the parallel is so perfect that Mrs. Armstrong said on her deathbed virtually the same thing would say almost forty years later.
Mr. Pack explains:
I am tempted to say that this statement says it all, but there is one other brief statement I would like to offer because it was part of my wife’s very last conversation with me, held one week ago tonight (Wednesday) as I write. She barely had enough breath to utter the words. It contains perhaps the most inspiring for you, but for reasons you will see, the most difficult of words for me to hear:
“Tell the men in the office and the Church to always pray to keep their eyes on the Work. That is the most important thing for the rest of the age. Don’t take your eyes off the Work. I am just sorry I could not stay and do it with you.” (Source)
I know there will be dissidents out there who doubt this, who will suggest that Mrs. Pack, knowing what Mrs. Armstrong said, deliberately tried to create a parallel. I know that there are those out there who will even go so far as to suggest that Mr. Pack made the whole episode up to further legitimize his position. However, those of us who are truly converted will see this kind of thinking to be the Satanic attack on the Truth that it is, and will put it out of our minds permanently.
Death is the equalizer—so the cliche goes, but I wonder if it’s true in the COGs. Death can often overcome family estrangement when family members realize that whatever drove them apart is inconsequential compared to the loss of a family member.
Can this happen this week in Ohio?
When I heard about Shirley Pack’s tragic death, the person I thought of immediately was Pack’s estranged son. He is not in the any COG (to my knowledge, based on his comments at this site), and as I understand, he is not even on speaking terms with his father.
The real tragedy here would be a continued estrangement, because it would be the only part that’s complete choice.
We regret to inform you that after a long battle with cancer Mrs. Pack died peacefully in her sleep at her home in the early hours of Sunday morning. Her physical condition began to deteriorate rapidly on Tuesday and this continued through the end of the week.
How difficult would it be to convince people that you’re a minister of the Holy Spirit with special gifts? Is it just a matter of acting? Could I, as I mentioned with writing about Rod Parsley, do it? And of so, how does he does it?
It turns out to be fairly simple, as British skeptic Derren Brown shows:
How difficult would it be to take someone who already believes in Reiki healing (Wikipedia) and incorporate a truly functional belief in the efficacy of voodoo? Simple: Voodoo
How difficult would it be to walk up to someone on the street and within a space of fifteen seconds, so thorough psychologically discombobulate said strange that he will unquestionably give you his watch, cell phone, and house keys without thinking twice? Easy, if you know how to do the Russian scam.
Just noticed—the splinters section of the RCG’s page begins:
If you are learning the Bible’s true doctrines for the first time, this section is NOT the place to begin. You cannot possibly understand what is written here.
This insult to the intelligence of the average prospective member is just the first of many times David Pack will certainly intentionally try to make the PM feel intellectually inferior.
the more popular Petra becomes, unless world events change in particular ways (which they may) it may be that the Philadelphian remnant will simply be near, not in, Petra.
It’s interesting that Petra is still an option—“near Petra”, granted, but it’s still in the picture.
Petra is such a part of the COG culture that it would be all but impossible to think differently.
Since Bob Thiel began using WordPress for his site, I think it’s time we officially recognize it for what it is: a blog.
Mr. Thiel will probably chafe under the description. In fact, he once told me that because his site is more of a “a news, research, and commentary site,” it’s not a blog, which is “mainly observations and opinions.”
I think in that case, “blog” is the perfect label for each and every COG site out there. Sure, some sites (like Mr. Thiel’s) like to portray themselves as more than simply opinion and commentary, but they really amount to little more.
Yet “blogs” are not merely about observations and opinions. Why would Google have a blog, then? There, Google announces new products (for example, Google Desktop is now available for Linux) and discusses technical issues of existing products. If that’s not news and information, I really don’t know what is.
What does “blog” mean these days, then? I’d say it’s becoming synonymous with “frequently updated website” and nothing more. Originally, blogs were just lists of links – web logs, places people had found interesting on the internet. Then people started using them for commentary and opinion. Now, they’re used by everyone for everything.
So, Mr. Thiel, time to face the facts: your site is a blog.
But why would that be such an issue for him? I suspect that “blog” implies for Mr. Thiel something informal, and we all know what informal means in COG speak—it’s the opposite of authoritative.
“Blog” in the COG world is turning into something like the term “dissident.” It destroys any sense of legitimacy. It is, after all, just opinion. It’s an individual trying to have a “voice”, and Mr. Pack kindly pointed out to us the sinful nature of such an unnatural, ungodly desire.
This site, however, is a blog. I have no issues with the term “blog”, though I don’t really like the way the word comes off the tongue—sounds a little more like a geographical feature than a form of technology.
A reader pointed out that Bob Thiel is now using WordPress for one section of COGWriter.
I suggested to Bob that he make such a move some time ago. I’m glad to see he finally did.
One of the most useful features of such software is the ability to give readers a chance to participate in the process by sharing their own views. It even allows comment moderation, something all COG blogs should have.
I’m sure Mr. Thiel will be turning on the comment feature any day now…
Will the COGs be the most hated organizations on the face of the earth? Will the “Devil’s best army” chase one—or all—of the XCGs to the Place of Safety? What would the first signs of such an attack look like?
How, for example, would the current Vatican initiate something? Is there something it could do now before it gains military power and becomes the Beast?
How about a DoS attack? The Trumpet already foresees it:
In future, the battlefield for warfare will be the server room. Engagements on land and sea, even in air and space will rely heavily upon who wins the battle on the front lines of computer code. For this reason, Beijing wants electronic superiority, especially over the United States.
So why has no one attacked any of the COG sites? Surely, if there had been such an attack on, say, the RCG’s site, we would hear about it endlessly. Booklets would be written about it. Just What Do You Mean, “Denial of Service?” Sermons would be given.
Via my trusty RSS feed ‘gator loading “Shadows of the WCG’s” latest posts, I discovered theworldtomorrowbroadcast.com.
Another HWA site—fine and good.
There’s a survey, “Where Did You Hear About this Site?” At first, I thought it was one of those out-of-the-box surveys, because it lists CNN, FOX News, TV Land. I thought, “Surely whoever is behind this doesn’t have the money to advertise on those channels?!?”
Then I saw the final option…
It’s somewhat immature to point out grammatical and orthographic errors, but given HWA’s obsession about “quality,” it’s just too ironic to pass up.
(Here is another article that originally appeared on my blog Post-WCG Life and Theology and with a pleasant response by the focus of the article by none other than Professor Francis Beckworth of the Texas-based Baylor University. Enjoy!)
I found an another interesting article on Christianity Today.com on a Question and Answer interview with Baylor University Professor Francis Beckwith’s rejoining the Catholic faith from Protestantism. As a result resigned from the Evangelical Theological Society. Gavin Rumney has mentioned about Professor Beckwith’s decision earlier this month on his blog. As a teen growing up in the WCG, I believed with my whole heart that the Roman Catholic Church was Babylon as the church taught it. Thankfully in my mid 20’s in 1994 when the late Joe Sr. said that there “were other Christians in other churches” I sort of mellowed out but was glad to hear that Catholics and Protestants were to take part in the “first ressurection”, I was no longer lonely—-while the ultra-conservatives in WCG cringed bitterly in being deceitful passive aggressive mode (smile outside, say nothing and whine and curse inside) against that concept. They (the Armstrongites in their vanity) had to be the elite force! I learned to respect and love Pope John Paul II as I entered my current decade of life (the 30’s), finally learning that he was one of the “good guys” (hey there is a book about Reagan, Thatcher and John Paul II’s effort to thwart the Soviet empire). Another side note, I was baptized as a Roman Catholic before my mom joined the WCG in 1971 and probably Jared Olar and Darren Carrey would love to say to me, “Felix, it’s time to come home to Mother Church.” Well, not quite. As I said, I admire Pope John Paul II and I respect the Catholic’s belief in faith and works go together (whereas evangelical Protestants haven’t grown up on this issue enough in my opinion, they like to scream we are NOT saved by works—-yea,yea I know but in James said that faith without works is dead! So deal with it!) but I think Jared would consider me way too much of a “cafeteria Catholic” to join anyway. Still consider myself a post evangelical who is interested in some of what Eastern Orthodoxy has to say on original sin, their Christus Victor view on the Atonement (as opposed to the western view of penal subsititution), their view of heaven and hell among other things. I am also stil interested in the Hebriac roots of Christianity (but don’t expect me to wear a tzit-tzit and dress up like a Hasidic). Those who are in the splinters (and those who have a malicious anti-Catholic bias) would do well to understand why people like Professor Beckwith, Jared and Darren decide to become Catholics. Trust me they are not evil people but rather pretty God-fearing. Open your mind and see their positions, you don’t have to submit it—-just understand it. You will become a better person for it.
Let’s have some fun with the new and improved Google Analytics, which can tell how many visitors from a given state, or even city, are coming to this site.
Before we go any further, understand that I am not making any sort of claims about the accuracy of this. I have reason to doubt that it is 100% accurate. Still, it’s fun…
Which XCG visits the site the most:
By far, the group most interested in this site is the LCG. From Charlotte we have 279 visitors
Next up is good old Wadsworth, with 32 visitors. Pack is obviously less worried because he’s an apostle, as opposed to lowly Rod Merideth.
This site’s still clearly on the WCG’s radar, with 24 visitors
And then we have the PCG:
We don’t even seem to have a single visitor from Edmund. Which can only mean one thing: they’re using proxy servers to hide their cyber tracks.
Brethren, this work is really starting to catch the eye of the various splinters and slivers. Before you know it, the devil’s greatest army will be chasing the web host toward a white horse which will then…
Gizoogle is, according to its own description, a site “Fo all you beotches who wanna find shiznit.” You run pages through and it translates.
Here’s something from XCG through Gizoogle—the inset on the latest post:
In case you’re straight trippin’ you can’t use tha Way Back Machine ta look at old issues of AW. Shucks…
What about running other XCGs through it?
Here’s the RCG’s blurb for its America and Britain in Bible Prophecy.
All nations is trippin’ toward tha grand smash conclusion ta occur in tha “last days.” Humanity plunges ahead—blind, pleasure-crazed n detached frizzay important world events occurr’n daily.
The PCG’s recent article on Israel doesn’t come out so well:
Despite mass public protests, allegations of ballin’ fizzle corruption ta failure ta defend tha country in war, n calls fizzle high-level politizzles witin his own party ta resign, Israeli Prime Minista Ehud Olmert not only is refus’n ta stizzay dizzown, but survived no-confidence votes in Israel’s parliament earlia this month.
Here’s Mr. Thiel:
The USA used ta dominate auto straight trippin’ but its influence has decreazed mizzuch in tha past 40 years, n especially tha last ten straight from long beach nigga.
And Gavin comes out straight raw (as my at-risk kids would say):
Ancient Israel was a sippin’ society. If you wanted ta buy sum-m sum-m you wizzle expected ta haggle fo gettin yo pimp on. The oaths in Matthew 5 is those of merchants pimpin’ ta convince a customa of tha value of they goods. The context isn’t `bout law but trad’n� so i can get mah pimp on.
But who can beat the Old Man himself? Here’s 1975 in Prophecy
YOUR own future is laid bare, now, in prophecy! The curtain of tha future is drawn back.
Prophecies that wizzle closed n sealed tizzight now stand REVEALED. This mystify’n, neglected third of tha Bible now becomes plain. Mysteries of Gizzy drug deala before understood, now become crystal-clear. God’s own tizzy fo` this reveal’n has come . Nigga get shut up or get wet up. The KEYS that locked tha future have bizzle found.
But wizzle is actually goingta happen is not what tha world expects!
Today this world is chang’n – fizzay . Wussup to all my niggaz in the house! Unprecedented events is doggy stylin’ tha world already. Yet what we hizzle seen is mild compared ta tha catastrizzles happen’n tizzle wizzle rizzy this world in tha near future in tha dogg pound!
I recently reported that the RCG no longer has that “download” counter, to which someone responded via email:
On May 5th you reported that the RCG no longer publishes its download counter. That is not accurate. It’s May 9th, and you can still find it on their website. Perhaps you missed it because you took a quick fly by.
Odd, I thought—maybe I missed it. I’ve now scoured the main website (www.thercg.org/home.html) and I still cannot see it. That’s because it’s on the news.html page.
Wasn’t it on the main page before? That’s what I was referring to.
Anyway, the correspondent continues,
Your report certainly pleased Bob Thiel, however. He grabbed it like a kid who finds a piece of candy on the sidewalk. He quoted you without bothering to check. The LCG is quietly worried about the RCG, you see.
The RCG website no longer has that ridiculous “download counter.” Wonder why?
The “download counter” was somewhat strange as it did not count actual downloads (it was some type of estimate that was often adjusted). There have been some problems accessing RCG’s site lately and perhaps that “download counter” was a factor. Anyway removing it seems to be a good idea.
In case you’re wondering, you can’t use the Way Back Machine to look at old issues of AW. Shucks…
You can, though, see an old version of the LCG’s site if you’re interested Maybe Thiel checked only the main page like I did. Maybe he didn’t check anything.
Which was it Mr. Thiel?
Oh, that’s right—you don’t leave comments…
Nonetheless, I am fairly certain that the download counter used to be on the front page of the RCG’s little house of horrors.
I went to the Way Back Machine’s archive for RCG pages and it’s not on the front page there.
David Pack has posted a saddening letter on his sect’s web site. Long story tragically short, David Pack’s wife, Shirley, has cancer—uterine cancer that has spread to her lungs.
A lot could be said about the letter itself, available here, but I’ll take it at face value: a request for prayers. I pass that along to believers here.
A reader who goes by the name “eddby” made the following comment:
A couple of years back, I knew there was something amiss when I asked a LCG elder why don’t they show the old HWA tommorow’s world tapes once and awhile during services. I was told without any further explanation that they just don’t do it. I recently saw an old HWA tape and now I can understand why. Rod wags his head just as HWA did when a point was being made. Rod also uses long vowels like in “aaaaaaaaall the world”. The same as HWA. No matter! (Source)
This, I suppose, is only natural. As adolescents, we probably all tried to imitate those we admire. I once fancied myself a poet, and it’s fairly obvious, flipping through my old work (if I still had it, that is), when I fell under Walt Whitman’s spell. But we outgrow that. My Whitman phase was in high school. By the time I was taking creative writing in college, I realized that all good writers find and/or create their own voice.
There is something inherently adolescent in much of xCG culture and theology. A prime example: the ability we’d all have as gods to thumb our noses at those who’d mocked us when we were mere mortals and get even.
So it’s not surprising that so many ministers tried to imitate Armstrong. Wasn’t that, after all, the purpose of Ambassador College, to turn out little HWA clones? Wasn’t that the motivation behind the Spokesman’s Club manual?
Yet so many of the ministers never outgrew it. In fact, it continues, in a modified form, to this day.
The single best example is James Turck, of the RCG. Turck tries desperately to imitate David Pack’s speaking style: his pronunciation, phrasing, when to take an audible breath.
It’s only to be expected. All the COGs are writing about Virginia Tech.
RCG
The RCG has an obvious answer: they’re not real Christians.
And then there is the universal question in the minds and on the lips of most: “Why did God allow this tragedy?”
The religions of men cannot correctly answer this. At best they can only offer a mixture of truth and error. While religious opinions will vary, most will utter meaningless words of “healing,” which serve as nothing more than spiritual junk food—filler disguised as substance; tastes sweet, but leaves you wanting for something more substantial. They will assert that God “acts in mysterious ways,” implying that blind faith is expected from His followers. [...]
Millions claim to serve Him, but who are Christ’s friends? “You are My friends, if you do whatsoever I command you” (Source)
That circle of protection again, I guess.
PCG
“It’s the elders’ fault!” cries the PCG.
If we are ever to solve the problems plaguing the younger generation, we must first consider what is wrong with the older one! God says in verse 12, “They which lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.” (Source)
Perhaps if the parents of the victims had been helping build Gerry’s fantasy (big house, big auditorium, etc), their children would have been spared.
LCG
Richard Ames calls his article, “Is There Any Hope?” What a leading question.
From Columbine to Kosovo, and from Blacksburg to Baghdad, our world is mired in violence, pain and suffering. Have you ever asked yourself, “Is There Any Hope?” God’s word gives the answer! (Source)
Hope lies in the COG Gulag that Armstrongists like to call the World Tomorrow.
UCG
The UCG is strangely silent—at least at first glance. Their updates page doesn’t mention anything.
xCG
GTA’s site is silent on the issue. Wonder why…oh, that’s right. He’s dead and Mark is just milking his dad’s rep for all it’s worth.
The mother hen is silent.
Church of the Eternal God is still just looking forward to Pentecost.
I guess it was just the big three—as in, the big three mouths—that had something to say about this.
The BBC has an article about the creationist museum in Petersburg, Kentucky.
It is, in short, a monument to the ability of man to warp the simplest things to fit preconceived notions.
On a rocky ledge, there is a pair of small theropods—young T. rexes we’re told. And near to them (“hold onto your hat,” says Ken [Ham, museum director], anticipating our disbelief) there are two human children playing by a stream.
Most geologists would say humans and dinosaurs were separated by more than 60 million years.
And those dinosaurs have very sharp teeth!
“So do bears”, says Ken. “But they eat nuts and berries! Remember, before the sin of Adam, the world was perfect. All creatures were vegetarian.” One of the dinosaurs lets out a rather contradictory roar.
Yes, this is the world of creationist. Dinosaurs have those dreadfully sharp teeth for tearing into the flesh of berries and nuts. I must admit, Brazil nuts are kind of tough to get into sometimes, but really, I think such a design indicates design by committee rather than design by an omnipotent being.
One small question: if the dinosaurs lived with humans, why isn’t there any mention of them in the Bible, particularly in the Levitical dietary laws? Not one mention. Yes—arguing form silence, but it just seems odd that there would be no mention in the Bible of certainly the oddest and, generally speaking, largest animals roaming the Garden.
But what happened to the dinosaurs? Did the Flood get them? Not quite…
Though the Bible does not mention them directly, Ken Ham thinks there is no reason to suppose that dinosaurs were not still around at the time of the flood.
Indeed, he speculates that two of each may have been taken aboard the Ark (newly hatched dinosaurs are quite small so fitting them in would not have been a problem).
That’s right—let’s just take the unbelievable account of the Ark (how did all those animals fit into such a small space?) and make it even more unbelievable.
But at last, a long-unsettling question can be answered:
And what about the animals from other continents? Did Noah sail to Australia to drop off the kangaroos?
No, the flood waters lubricated a process called runaway subduction in which the continents subsequently drifted apart at a sprint!
With that kind of “science,” we could indeed prove that the moon is made of green cheese.
When I was about eleven years old, I took an interest in cooking. My parents bought me an “international basics” cookbook. I was thrilled.
Unfortunately, many of the recipes were useless—shellfish, pork products, and other non-kosher goodies made the thought of cooking those dishes absurd.
But some of those “unclean” dishes looked so interesting to cook.
Well, I am no longer under the curse of dietary purity, and I still have the cookbook.
Spanish seafood stew.
Despite the fact that the stock is clam juice and there are tons of fresh clams in it, the soup was really not all that “fishy” at all.
(Happy Holy Week or Holy Day season everyone! This original appeared in my blog Post-WCG Life and Theology under the title, If If the United Church of God wants to live on in the 2020’s, 2030’s, 2040’s and beyond… on March 27th at lifeafterwcg.blogspot.com)
On Gavin Rumney’s Ambassador Watch blog, it is come to some kind of informal consensus that the United Church of God will live on while the PCG, RCG, David Hulme’s Church of God, and all the other insignificant splinters will finally die (good riddance!). If the United Church of God really wants to be a successful church and have countless opportunities at their finger tips, they need to listen to this:
Time to have a deeper meaning of grace. It is not merely God forgiving us in doing a sin, it is a much more complex dynamic. It is not license to sin, rather an active agent of God that cancels sin and is greater than sin. At least the Church of God (Seventh Day) unserstands this. It is time for the United Church of God, like the Christian Reformed Church believe that “the law” is used for “sanctification”, not “justification”. So if anyone thinks I am preaching antinomianism, really simply does not know what I am talking about.
Accept the triune nature of God. Read Robert M. Bowman Jr.’s book Why Should You Believe in The Trinity and James R. White’s The Forgotten Trinity. These are two men who are great scholars who spent a heck of a lot of time in their research and committed to the best of their knowledge to biblical truth. To say they are “Satan’s scholars” is just plain childishness. If you are bold and if you dare go to open your mind for once go to [Forgotten Trinity] and [Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah’s Witnesses]. On top that, a possible alternative to the God Family doctrine is “theosis” which the Greek Orthodox Church believes. “Children of God” will not suffice for the members. Read more about theosis at OrthodoxWiki.
Log on to goodnewsunlimited.org. I actually attend this fellowship (though it’s not really a church, but that’s another story for next time) in Toronto. It is probably high time that the leaders in the UCG study this site too. You can have a grace-based Sabbatarian denomination. Don’t let those who are overzealous in their New Covenant Theology argue with you and assert otherwise.
Keep it’s Hebraic-heritage! Let the UCG celebrate the Sabbath and the Holy Days. There is absolutely no need to change it to please anybody (like evangelicals who ignorant about them)—but here is the deal, don’t tell people that they have to give up their jobs and become seasonally or pemanantely unemployed or end up in a poverty cycle if they can’t keep it in its entirety. This nonsense that has happened and is happening in the splinters needs to stop!
If the UCG choose to be a Sabbatarian evangelical denomination, the next generation of ministers need to go to Andrews University in Michigan. Ditch this Ambassador Bible Center nonsense and get your education from some more detailed meticulous research that has been around a heck of a long time than the WCG and it’s splinters combined. Hey, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written two scholary books on the Holy Days (I even have one of them about the fall feasts!). Having Andrews support your theology will bring a long way and a more reputable one. Oh yea, Andrews is just a start, how about Fuller, or even Princeton to add on a full-time minister’s study?
To officially renounce that the United Church of God is a continuation of a movement started in the historic WCG and boldly declare the United Church of God is a movement soley and entirely on Jesus Christ. UCG’s answer to Steve Colbert, Richard Burkard may say, “Isn’t that has always been that way for the UCG, Felix?” C’mon, who are you kidding? It doesn’t take an Einstein to conclude that in practice, no. The UCG has been dedicated to the so-called “18 truths” founded by Herbert W. Armstrong, most which were proven in serious doctrinal error. If UCG is serious basing itself totally on Jesus Christ, it is time to be practical, to be bold and remove the wool over people’s eyes and the time to do it is NOW!
It is time involve ministers and members in the organization. Scrap this insane notion of a division of the clergy and the laity. The UCG should never have hierarchy like the WCG nor a totally congregational governance. A Presbyterian-Congregational model which is a compromise between both extremes is probably the best fit. The UCG member who takes pride in being “intellectually lazy” and takes joy in being spoonfed everything should be considered an annoying dinosaur.
Oh yes, some more radical stuff!!! Reconsider your tithing practices. Oh yes, if you guys believe in the triple tithe—it is time to END IT! Of course like a country, a church needs revenue to survive as an organism. Fine! Why don’t you consider ONE single tithe with three different uses. You think church revenue will decline? If you guys like conservative ideology, it’s time you practice some of their concepts! You believe that tax cuts help? Well, tithe cuts WILL WORK!!! Revenues will go up! Read Restoration Foundation’s magazine article on How God Sees Tithing at restorationfoundation.org. OR if you want REALLY, REALLY RADICAL stuff somebody was nice enough to give excerpts from a book on Mark Tabladillo’s message board, Jesus Loves Fellowship, from the late Ernest Martin on tithing and I will bring it here:
Ernest L. Martin’s website (remember him?) had a booklet out, The Tithing Dilemma.
Excerpts from booklet (part one of three):
The bottom line was “It is a sin (‘missed the mark’) against biblical teaching for preachers, priests, evangelists, rabbis and theologians to receive and spend the tithe God ordained for Israel even if the tithe is used to teach the truth.”
“It is equally a sin for the laity to give the tithe…”
The Israelites were strictly ordered by God to pay the tithe (the tenth)...to one group only…the Levites who (among other things) ministered in the Temple (Nu. 18:21)”
The Levites in turn were to give one tenth of that tithe to the priests (Nu. 18:25-28) who did not tithe at all…With no Temple, the major factor for tithing does not exist…”
Jews Do Not Tithe Today
ELM said he had concerns about tithing 35 years ago. He stated, “I telephoned three rabbis in the Los Angeles area for their explanation. Much to my dismay, all three independently of each other informed me that no religious Jew should tithe today.” One rabbi said, “If any member of my synagogue paid tithe in the scriptural manner, he would be disobeying the law of God—he would be sinning against God.”
The rabbi explained that though he was the chief rabbi of his synagogue, he was not a Levite…he was descended from the tribe of Judah and was therefore not eligible to recieve tithe.
A History of Tithing
The initial illustration is the account of Abraham and Melchizedek. Moses required that the tithe be paid ony on the increase from land and animals. Abraham did not work to produce any of the spoils…spoil does not represent increase. There was no biblical teaching which showed that Abraham was required to give a tenth. For hundred years later Moses legislated what should be done with any spoil (Nu. 31:9, 27-29).
Moses and Tithing
At Mt. Sinai the Old Covenant with the ten commandments and many other laws was given to the Israelites. “Remarkably, there is not one hint of tithing…”
I can think of more suggestions (and if anyone else has more, I would like to hear from you) but I will stop here. The question remains: will the United Church of God look at my proposals? I am under NO illusion that the harsh answer is “DEFINATELY NO!” As a result, the UCG will just be another Armstrongite organization that will be just surviving, not truly succeding in the 2010’s, 20’s, 30’s until it shrivels up and dies sometime this century. It will probably gobble up already dead splinters. On the other hand, UCG’s answer to Steve Colbert, Richard Burkard may remark, “If there is an apocalyptic event in this century, the UCG may grow.” He may be right but if the UCG still wants to be a pretend “Mr.Rogers” Armstrongite cult, it does not deserve to grow and prosper in anyway. If they become an “Armstrongist Refusenik” denomination, they deserve to make their revolutionary mark in Christendom. If they are some Generation Xers (and even Yers) in the United Church of God, when their time is ready to enter the clergy, I can only pray to God that these guys make the intelligent, wise and noble choice!
BBC has a documentary on the Phelps family, of Westboro Baptist Church, “God Hates Fags” notoriety. A fascinating look inside one of the most vilely curious groups in America.
“We’re living in the last of the last days. Times are very short.” Sounds familiar.
Anonymoustoo pointed out in a comment the following from Thiel’s site:
I have received a letter, purportedly from David Pack, that states that Syd Hull suddenly left RCG because Syd Hull stated that he did not “agree with the way the work is being done in RCG”.
David Pack purportedly wrote, “By choosing to leave God’s Work behind for a sliver in which a “work” of almost any kind and any size will ultimately never happen, Mr. Hull has in effect chosen to both retire and leave the Work, with apparently almost no one leaving with him.”
Presuming my source is accurate (and I believe it is), then Syd Hull is becoming experienced in sudden departures. If Syd Hull has chosen to affiliate with En COG, I agree with David Pack’s purported assessment. While the letter states that David Pack was not going to mark Syd Hull, it neglects to mention that Syd Hull thought he could mark me when he joined RCG.
To which rod2 responded,
Well, if the letter was dated April 1st, it could be an April Fools Day where dave will just say it was done to prove that no one can believe anything they read on the internet and thus he could then clamp down on his sheep for ever wanting to visit those sites that expose RCG for what it is ever again.
I thought I’d make it it’s own thread, so, discuss…
The liberal socialism that morphed out of a combine of godless German rationalism, child of the 18th-century period that historians label the Enlightenment, and its clone, godless communism, so long the mentor of our campus intelligentsia, is on the back foot. Religion of an older, traditional form is increasingly returning to fashion.
Huh?! Every other conservative Christian group is saying—has been saying for 40 years—the exact opposite. Just look at David Pack’s catalogs of evils that he posts every now in then in the Real Truth. For that matter, just look in the pages of the Trumpet itself. All we see is how people are turning more and more away from religion and traditional morality. And then this?
This is simply another example of the bizarre world of COG cognitive dissonance—or to use the old-fashioned term, a paradox. The world is increasingly evil—especially Europe—but soon, most of the Western world is going to turn to a form of ultra-conservative, ultra-repressive Christianity.
Anyone else see the stupidity in this line of thinking?
The article continues,
The arm-waving, foot-stomping, stupefyingly hyped-up emotionalism of so much of the evangelical Protestant movement that captivated a generation in Anglo-America seeking to fill the spiritual gap left by the three decades of experiments in social engineering during the 1960s through the ’80s has had its day.
I guess that’s why Benny Hinn and Rod Parsley are barely making a buck.
Further:
A powerful force is rising across the Atlantic, destined to pale all religious competition into relative insignificance. It is centered around a highly intelligent and articulate personality holding an office of increasing political significance. It has a collective budget and assets that make it the richest institution in the world. It has greater command of media than any single one of its competitors. It is the mother of all Christian religions.
Right. Benedict is the media personality. Why, his cold, intellectual personality will spark the imaginations of millions of Protestants. Even Bob Jones IV (or whatever roman numeral they’re on now) will become a pope worshiper.
Still more:
With Pope Benedict having just roundly challenged the mass media to change their largely destructive tune—destructive of basic family values and all that he sees as being fundamental to a good, “Christian and Catholic conception” of society—the Vatican announced March 12 that it will go on the offensive in the media war. The pope is about to build a global television audience to add to the rapidly growing global Web-based audience currently attracted to the Vatican’s well-developed online portal. The Vatican is on the verge of launching not just its own television station, but a global television network! With the call sign h2o, the network is due to be launched by the end of the year, offering a mix of news and original entertainment in seven languages.
A Catholic TBN? Perhaps Benny and Rod are onto something…
Take our word for it or not, the day will soon dawn when that network will air shows of a nature that will leave the public absolutely spellbound! In time to come, the Vatican will produce religious entertainment that will make Hollywood box-office hits on religious themes look more like Disney cartoons by comparison. The visions coming down the tube from Vatican-networked tv will literally hypnotize their global audience with their out-of-this-world, mind-shattering imagery.
Oh, sort of like TBN and The Omega Code? Now that’s quality film making.
The article concludes,
Read Revelation 13:13 in your own Bible. It’s a real show stopper! In time to come when you witness that event, broadcast around the world via globally networked television, remember where you read that it would one day become a reality. It just may mean that by remembering, you may then be able to do something positive and life-changing in light of the impending consequences of those startling events!
Revelation 13.13—how does that go again?
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men
Oh, so it is like the Omega Code, only its disjointed sequel, Meggido, where the anti-Christ actually shoots bolts from his fingers like the Emperor in Return of the Jedi.
That will be a show stopper. I for one can’t wait until the Pope puts together that special effects team.
A couple of weeks ago, there was an interesting post at the Yahoo! livingcog discussion group.
This excerpt is from “cbcfproj”
Are y’all as annoyed as I am by the constant drone we hear from Mr. Meredith about saying things like “we are doing a better work than any other church,” “we are the only ones with the right form of government,” “we are closer to following HWA than anyone else,” we are the best, others are bad, we are great, others are losers, blah, blah, blah.
No wonder LCG hasn’t been exalted by God. We are exalting ourselves.
And its not as if he needs to tell any of us that are in LCG. We already believe that or we wouldn’t be here! All it does is alienate everyone else in the COG community as well as annoy those of us in LCG. Ugh… (Source)
I’d suggest to cbcfproj that Meredith is simply following in the established tradition of all Armstrongist groups. It’s hard to be humble from the starting proposition that you’re the only true Christians in the universe.
The splintering of the WCG drove a wedge between two notions that are really, when separated, are mutually exclusive. The first is that you personally are among the only true Christians in the world. The second is that your church is the sole collection of fellow true Christians. When the WCG was whole and “healthy” (in its spiritually and psychologically unhealthy way), we could all hold those two propositions with equal confidence. Once all the true Christians become scattered, the second proposition cracks under the pressure. Does the “church” become a spiritual organism, in the classic Protestant formulation? If you hold to the principle, do you accept the corollary that the vast majority of the WCG (and probably, therefore, the vast majority of your friends) were not true Christians? And then the unbearable—am I a true Christian? Am I in the right group? Does being in the right group make me a true Christian?
The post also illustrates another phenomenon brought about by the changes—the ability to criticize your leader and yet still hold all his teachings to be true. It’s not quite the same a the phenomenon we’ve all seen here: someone who can criticize HWA to no end and yet still hold to his doctrines. No, this is a shade subtler. It’s something relatively new in COGdom, facilitated in large part by the anonymity the web offers. In my WCG experience, we all put on a happy face about everyone in administration and everything coming from “headquarters.” Here we see someone essentially behaving like a stockholder, criticizing the actions of the CEO.
I can’t see this as anything but a healthy development, and not only because it might eventually lead to the downfall of the LCG. Church members are the ultimate stockholders, a they provide a church with 99% of it income. While such complaining is certainly not the same as having a say in how the church is run (which I doubt will ever happen), it is a step in that general direction. And its a step that members themselves can force the administration to take: the ability to vote with your dollars is another positive outcome of the splintering of the WCG.
At the livingcog message forum, one “jimhmby” posted the following:
I was wondering ,for the sake of discussion, how many of you have given any thought to what might have occured if HWA had gotten his way from the King of Jordan way back when, and the church was given permission to go to Petra?
Do you think HWA had thought perhaps if he made the initiative, God would have honoured the request to bring on the end? Or did HWA think the Beast Power was on the scene and all the things he had said had to be in place had already happened , or was about to? And have you wondered what would have happened if we had all went to Petra and the end did not come then?. (Source)
HWA had no intention of ever fleeing. His old body couldn’t handle any sort of roughing it—and anything short of Steuben crystal and fine china would have been roughing it for him.
This “fleeing” nonsense is the the point of no return, and no COG leader in his right mind will ever make such an irreversible announcement. They have the dream job: respect adulation, money, and most importantly, no heavy lifting.
The only real exception to this rule is Gerald Flurry. But his cult’s “fleeing” would likely only be to his Edmond compound. However, it’s unlikely that he’ll ever do that either. Why? Money. How will the PCG get any money if all it’s suckers faithful tithe payers are huddled in the John Amos Field House, awaiting the Tribulation?
No, fleeing has always been a stick and a carrot (amazing how well Amstrongist cults create sticks that are carrots that are sticks) to extort more and more money from followers.
Buckblog beat me to the punch! He points out Pack’s recent efforts to, as Buck put it, “pick off more LCG members and position himself the flag bearer of all things Armstrong.” Pack has a new article called “A Splinter University—and Accreditation!” (Available here). As you might guess from the title, it’s criticism of LCG’s “university” plans.
Buckblog summarizes it perfectly, then goes for the jugular:
This is simply another transparent attempt in a long line from him to attempt to enrich himself at the expense of others. He doesn’t even pretend to hide it with this appeal. [...]
How about some real numbers on membership? How about some real numbers on income, not just vague generalities, instead of easily manipulated and unverifiable internet stats?
Comments that deal with the personal lives of COG personalities, their jobs, their family members, etc. are not appropriate. Any such comment containing remarks will simply be deleted without regard to the rest of the comment’s content (i.e., whether the rest of it makes a good point or not).
In Part 2 of his Second Commission sermon, Dave Pack gives a stunningly logical—not to mention convincing—reason why the RCG will need a new building. Existing staff, organized into several departments, is growing steadily, but the real reason the RCG will need to build a new building is the possibility of new departments that might develop.
Ears perk up—are we talking about a TV production department? Or at least a video production department?
Unlike in his normal lists, Dave only mentions a couple of items. The reason they’ll be needing a new building any day now is because they might want a landscaping/gardening/maintenance department.
Just let that logic sit in your Monday-morning brain for a while…
Underdog398, who posted the original Sodom/LCG comments, recently commented at the forum about what I’d written here:
I just want to clear up something. The XCG site has taken what I ment [sic] to say way out of context. I am in no way trying to say that LCG is like Sodom or Gomorrah. I only ment [sic] to say that certain men that are no longer with us seemed to have held this problem that LCG is having at bay. Now that they no longer have their finger in the dike it is starting to leak. (Source)
I think it was pretty clear that I was not suggesting that the LCG has become a seething pot of gay lust.
Underdog’s response, though, only strengthens my confidence in my original interpretation: something is rotten in the state of North Carolina. The LCG is having a problem with members running off to this or that COG, and it’s apparently significant enough that Underdog is comparing it to Sodom and Gomorrah—probably the most viscerally negative image in the whole of Scripture.
If only certain men could hold this problem at bay, and Rod Meredith—the Presiding Evangelist—is not one of these men, then the situation in Charlotte is more dire than any of us imagined.
In another message, we read this:
I’ve heard from many in LCG that we will have another split sometime soon. In other words that Charles Bryce is not the only option, just that the other option has not presented itself yet. (Source)
An enlightening posting at the livingcog message board at Yahoo.
I was just thinking that a lot of truly converted strong people have left LCG one way or another. Everyone wonders why God let Mr. Ogwyn die. And others have died or just left. But if you think about it God would not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah while lot was there. But once he left then came the fire and brimstone. I believe God is allowing all of this for a reason, what it is I don’t know. But because of all of this I am really praying and studying and fasting more than before, so something good is coming from all of this. I just wonder what will happen when all of Lot’s family is removed from LCG will we see fire and brimstone fall???? (Source)
It seems that even many of those still in the LCG are wondering whether the organization is falling apart. What’s most striking in this is the notion that it might be God’s doing.
What just about made me spew my morning tea was the comparison to Sodom. There’s not much positive in that story at all. Even “righteous” Lot is immoral. Other than the obvious, shudder-inducing imagery about LCG services, such a comment leaves the impression that at least one individual thinks that life in the LCG is about as bad as it can be.
A couple of developments at the RCG—my personal favorite COG flavor.
First, the RCG has posted a map of planned pastoral regions. That is, places Pack hopes to place pastors, who have yet to be hired or even trained.
Second, Pack has posted another sermon about the “Second Commission.” Two minutes into it, he talks about how Reuters mentioned the blogging article in one of its pieces, and then mentions that the Washington Post picked up that story. “We track these things,” he says, mentioning RCG’s tech gurus who can dig all this stuff out. Makes Googling sound impressive.
Later Pack says that 77% of his web is international. That’s very telling…
“Time is short!” the PCG has been shouting ever since its inception. And that’s why investing in a college, faculty housing, a hall of administration, and an auditorium makes perfect sense. But when you’re modeling yourself after Herbert Armstrong, that—and getting on TV—is the Holy Grail.
Which explains why the RCG—despite Pack saying, in sermons, that there’s no way we have more than ten years—is following suit:
A beautiful new 3-story World Headquarters building is leaving the planning stages. Groundbreaking will likely occur late this year. (When ready, we will post dramatic architectural renderings of the building, probably in interactive 3D, with zoom-in and virtual tour capability.) (RCG News page)
There’s also a new sermon posted. I listened to about five minutes of it. What did he talk about the entire time? The growth of the sect’s staff—they’re up to twenty-seven or so now, I think—and surprise! their website. There are several explanations for this, none of them good. We could be kind to him and simply suggest that Pack lacks good planning skills. We could be totally pessimistic about it and say it’s clear proof that Pack doesn’t believe the stuff he’s spewing. But the more logical explanation is probably in the benign middle: Pack is so wrapped up in the ego trip of being God’s Head Man On Earth that cognitive dissonance not only doesn’t affect him—the thrives off it.
Other big news: Pack is going to be the hiring a bunch of new ministerial minions. And they’re going to have an SEP rip-off this summer.
“Brethren, things are really accelerating [toward my goal of recreating as much of the Armstrong empire as possible, with me at the head of the table].”
A little treasure hunt for those interested. An imagined example of how a Packian slight-of-hand might work, with a Thielian touch—no link. Like I said, a treasure hunt. [...] Brethren, all I can say is that we are attracting attention. People the world over commented—mostly in the negative—about our article concerning blogging. And let me just say, the response is more than anyone—anyone unconverted, that is; anyone who lacks both a mind filled with the spirit of God and the prophetic acumen to discern the nature of the times—the, um, response is more than anything most carnal-minded people would have anticipated.
Brethren, we are now in the scopes of major news organizations. Reuters has mentioned our blogging article in one of the own articles. And it’s not exactly positive.
We are in the sights, ladies and gentlemen. We are attracting worldwide attention. We are being noticed.
With a communiqué issued in Tanzania on Monday after a five-day meeting, the leaders of Anglican provinces around the world (known as primates) asked the United States branch to bar gay men and lesbians from becoming bishops, and to stop official blessings of same-sex unions. The communiqué even specified a deadline: Sept. 30. (NYT)
This clearly an effort on the part of the Anglican Church to align itself for a smoother reunification with the Catholic Church.
It’s also a wake-up call for the liberal American Anglican church (known as Episcopalian). “What the larger Anglican Community is saying,” explained Bishop Mark Sisk of New York, “is that if we want to get a piece of the coming End of the World action and have a share of the Whore of Babylon’s power, we’re going to have to shape up.”
“I mean, if we’re going to partake of the orgy of satanic power that the Mother Whore Church is going to be leading, we’ve got to stop ordaining homosexuals and get ready to start stoning them,” Sisk added. “Or burning them at the stake after church if necessary,” he said, noting that he had several “queers” in his congregation that would really “light up the night.”
No comment from Rome on whether or not the mass executions Benedict promised should the Anglican Church not stamp out its liberal elements will actually come to pass.
Theologians around the world, however, are now realigning their prophetic calendars with the new information about the September 30 deadline.
From the BBC, I read this morning about Putin’s recent speech:
It may well be remembered as a turning point in international relations and a sign of a more assertive Russia, our correspondent says.
Western leaders in the audience, including Mrs Merkel, looked decidedly glum-faced when President Putin had finished, our correspondent adds.
Watch for XCGs to be using this shortly…
I haven’t checked—maybe they’re already talking about it.
The funny thing is the next portion:
Earlier, Mrs Merkel told delegates there was “no way around” the need for Tehran to accept demands from the UN and nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
“What we are talking about here is a very, very sensitive technology, and for that reason we need a high degree of transparency, which Iran has failed to provide, and if Iran does not do so then the alternative for Iran is to slip further into isolation,” she said. (BBC)
It sounds more like the U.S. and Germany are on the same side of this issue.
Pack has a new article: Why God’s Church Uses the Internet to Preach the Gospel. Before reading, I’ll hazard a guess: it’s the only place that will have you! You don’t have the money to produce a telecast, but any schmuck can have a web site (yes, that is indeed self-indicting). Since Pack is constantly justifying the use of the Internet instead of the Armstrongian telecast model, perhaps he feels just a little guilty about it?
But there’s a deeper reason:
Television—like movies—has become a source of entertainment. The major networks feed society’s desire for entertainment, not news! Time slots for purchase are few and far between. This leaves only specialty “fringe” channels selling airtime.
Even if major broadcast networks were available and affordable, the Internet still greatly overshadows them in exposure. For instance, 30 million viewers are considered great ratings. However, that is during the most expensive timeslots, which are far out of any splinter group’s reach.
We wouldn’t want God’s truth slotted between two reality shows, now would we?
Truth be told, Pack would love to be on TV—he’s admitted as much. But for now, he’ll have to settle for a blog web site.
The primary goal of EU President Angela Merkel is to revive the European Constitution. Britain wants to keep the constitution buried. Where is this conflict of interests leading?
Ah! That’s it. Germany will put its foot down and declare, “der vill be a constitution, und you vill like it!” Britain will shrug it off and go for afternoon tea.
The PCG (and probably other COGs) has been shouting for some time now that Edmund Stoiber is going to be, somehow, connected to the Beast. Maybe the Beast.
I can’t remember the details, and I don’t care.
At any rate, Stoiber has announced he’s retiring:
Stoiber announced last Thursday that he will retire from his powerful post of premier of Bavaria in September, in addition to stepping down from leadership of the Christian Social Union, one of the main coalition partners in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s shaky coalition government.
That’s how the Trumpet reported it. Low key—after all, if your golden boy was soon going to be fading from the spotlight, you probably wouldn’t want to be too loud about it.
But never fear—there’s hope after all:
Stoiber is far from down and out. Does he wear the Protean mask that conceals political goals of a higher order? Freed from party restraints, will he bide his time to become the man for all seasons when Merkel’s coalition splits? For split it will, sooner or later, and Stoiber could be just the political savior that Germany will crave at that time. (Trumpet)
More back-pedaling. More qualification. More of everything that makes Armstrongism Armstrongism.
At least they’ve learned something from 1975 in Prophecy.
Dave Pack is stuck in a rut. Or maybe you’d call it an obsession. I would imagine it’s about all he talks about: the stats for his site.
In his latest sermon, “RCG 2007: Looking Ahead” (download), he talks about one really: web site stats. For about ninety minutes he goes on and on (and on and on) all the countries that are visiting his site, about all various government agencies are coming to his site, about how his site is so much bigger than any of the other splinters’.
How has he done it? The Google ad campaign. He finally gives some numbers on that.
Our ads have been shown over 700 million times. Other groups will talk about that, they don’t talk about it quite as much because they understand how big we are. And they’ve been clicked on, by the end of this month, 4 million times. Now, if you put a billboard up […] you get about one percent response. […] We’re finding that of the people who are seeing our ads, are coming to our site, and we’re only paying for those.
Figuring that the world population is six billion, that figures out to 34,200,000! Thirty-four million potential RCG members. Imagine that brethren… Shown 700 million times and clicked on 3 million times?! Wow! That’s a staggering 0.57% response!
And that’s all he says about it. He doesn’t give any details about how many people, on clicking through, have actually stuck around. I suspect a great number of those clicks are from those who would like to see the RCG’s money wasted, and so they click just to cost them a nickel.
“So, cut to the chase — who comes to Dave’s site?” you’re asking. Well, the truth of the matter is, we really don’t know. Neither does Dave. He thinks he knows, but as we’ve discussed here before, getting a hit is not the same as getting a visitor. But don’t tell Dave — it’d break his heart. Anyway, without further ado, I present The List, more or less verbatim:
Courts: Court of the Crown Prince of Bahrain; the European Court of Justice; the International Criminal Court
Departments and ministries: Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Iran; Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation; Saudi Arabia Ministry of Foreign Affairs; Kuwait Ministry of Communications
Embassies: Russian Embassy in China; Iranian Embassy in the Philippines; the South Korean Embassy in Belgium; the Austrian Embassy in Israel; the Israeli Embassy in Canada
Prime ministers and presidents: (“Somebody in the office.”) Presidential Office and Computer Department of Iran; the Philippines; Lithuania; Australia; Prime Minister of the Palestinian Territory
News media: the Economist; the International Herald Tribune; Boston Globe; Washington Post; Toronto Star; New York Times; Washington Times; Jordanian News Agency
Misc: Joint Command Southeast Headquarters; the Pentagon; United States Air Force; US Navy
That’s just to his main RCG site. The following have been seen virtually thumbing through the Real Truth
Embassies in the US: Sudan; China; Bosnia; Canada; Botswana; Belgium; Saudi Arabia
Prime Minister’s and President’s offices in London, Iran, the Philippines, South Korea, and Russia
Associated Press;
Foreign Governments: Israel, South Africa
Misc: NATO headquarters, pentagon, NYC police department, CIA, Navy, Army, Air Force, United Nations (in Vienna, Geneva, etc)
Of particular interest to Dave is the increase in the visits from the Vatican. He explains that, for some time now, the Vatican has been coming every now and then, but only taking one item each visit. “One, one, one, one, one, one, then 22. And we know what they went in to see. Christmas booklet—couldn’t have been happy.” That’s right, Dave. They read your Christmas booklet — rather, your paraphrase of Armstrong’s — and now they’re plotting how to shut you up. Permanently.
Of course, says Pack,
I don’t know that [Pope] Benedict [XVI] went to 22 pages on our website. At some point whoever did it is going to go back and report it to him. […] That will happen. […] It may have already happened. […] It may have been the visit that he said, “Find out more, and get back to me,” with a thick German accent. I don’t know.
Perhaps nothing he’s said before so clearly illustrates how little thought Pack really puts into what he says. Benedict speaks English in the Vatican?! Not German? Not Italian?
The content of the imaginary command is just as ludicrous. It sounds as if Pack has been reading too many cheap spy novels and Chick tracts in his free time.
Pack is clearly delusional. Think of what he’s suggesting: because he’s saying Christmas is pagan in origin the Vatican is going to put a contract out on him. Compared to death threats, feces-smeared Virgins, murdered nuns, I think any suggesting that Pack’s little pack would elicit more than a laugh from anyone in the Vatican is, itself, laughable.
So the Vatican, the CIA and the NYPD are all visiting Dave’s site. The question is, how realistic is Dave’s understanding of all this? Talking about presidential offices supposedly visiting his site, he says that it doesn’t have to be the president, of course. It could be “Joe the Janitor down in the basement.” But he says that he doesn’t “know that Joe the Janitor would have access to the International Criminal Court website.”
What is he talking about? Is he saying that Joe the Janitor wouldn’t have internet access while working at the International Criminal Court? Is he saying that Joe the Janitor would somehow be trying to access the International Criminal Court’s website through the RCG, or vice versa? Is this just a misspoken bit of nonsense? Or is it an illustration of how very little Pack really knows about internet technology?
Dave’s a smart man, so I’ll reluctantly go with it being a verbal stumble. Yet such verbal stumbles often reveal hidden truths. For instance, in the same sermon, Pack begins talking about how Christ could raise up stones to do the work — literally. And then: “I’ve used and recognized certain people. ‘That’s just a rock.’” There you have it — David Pack finally fessing up to his entire leadership model since he’s been in a position of any sort of authority: he uses people.
It’s good that you’re admitted that, David. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to solving it. We’re all proud of you…
COG attention is focused on this site, brethren. People from the headquarters of all the major Churches of God are coming to this site in recordnumbers.
There are even people coming from WCG headquarters -- even
though I don't mention them!
Brethren, time is short. The number of visitors from all these various Churches
of God is proof that they are sitting up and taking notice.
There is sure to be a storm of
controversy regarding this site. And ladies and gentlemen, let me tell
you now -- it will the the RCG that leads the charge.
Let me say that again: it will be the RCG that leads the charge. [Pause
as I take a drink of water -- cue swallowing sound.]
To put it quite plainly -- brethren, I can't but it any more bluntly --
we are receiving significant traffic
from the Ohio region. They're coming from Akron. They're coming from
Columbus. There coming from Wadsworth.
I'm not making this up -- I just wish you could see the statistics
for this site, which clearly show: we are in for a rough ride,
ladies and gentlemen.
Buckle your seatbelts, brethren, because here comes the storm!
What I did was simple: I took a look at statistics from Google Analytic
and drew some hasty conclusions.
Here are the meager statistics. The rest is "extrapolation."
I went ahead and took a commenter’s advice and ordered Stephen Flurry’s Raising the Ruins: The Fight to Revive the Legacy of Herbert W. Armstrong from Amazon.com.
This will be a multi-part review. I’ve no idea how many parts, and I’ve no idea when I’ll post the next part. Embarking on this project, I ask myself, “How can I possibly be anything close to objective?” After all, Flurry is second-in-command at a cult, right? I think in this case, being objective means opening the book with the thought that I might actually learn something; with the thought that the author can and will make valid points.
My initial reaction to receiving the book was one of surprise. I didn’t look closely at the Amazon.com information, and so I was not expecting to open the package and find a cloth book. After all, I paid only $15, including shipping and handling. A 400-page cloth new release should be a lot more expensive.
My initial thought is that the PCG financed the publication of the book through a daughter publishing company like Stanley Rader did with Against the Gates of Hell.
I look at the publishing info. The only thing there: “Distributed by Midpoint Trade Books, Inc.” The key word is “distributed.” It’s not a traditional publishing house, where writers submit their manuscripts in the hope that a company editor will like it and think it’s worth the risk of spending the capital to publish it. Instead, would-be writers go with manuscript and cash in hand, and—viola!—a book.
Over our short five-year history, Midpoint Trade Books has become one of the larger distributors in the industry, noted for successful innovation. Our concept is unique. Unlike older distributors who follow the same timeworn marketing model as the aging publishing giants, we represent a new, lower cost alternative for independent publishers. (Company website)
It seems that instead of setting up (or buying) its own publishing house, the PCG has simply found a distributor.
Why would the PCG do this? Why not just publish it like they do all their own booklets and magazines? Probably for much the same reason that the WCG, through the Ambassador International Cultural Foundation, bought the Everest House publishing company — to give it the look of social acceptability. The PCG probably doesn’t want it directly associated with the rest of their catalog in order to attract readers it might not otherwise.
This also goes a long way in explaining why it’s not free. It lends an air of professionalism to the whole project. Additionally, since the PCG obviously wants to disseminate this book via online book sales, there must be a price, even if it’s only symbolic.
Yet this raises yet another dilemma: what do we make of the advertisements for the book found in The Philadelphia Trumpet? Can the Trumpet continue to say that it is advertisement free? Why does it like to brag that? Because it’s the same as saying, “We’re beholden to no man!” But if the advertisement is for a book published by the group’s leader’s son, well, that’s different. Of course then the PCG runs afoul of their claim that everything they produce is absolutely free. Maybe this only applies to “the Truth.”
Perhaps a conclusion we can draw from all this is that they are inadvertently admitting that Stephen’s new book is not true?
From what I’ve read, it’s not. Not entirely. It’s a shade of truth. Off-white, off-truth.
As a matter of interest, has Roderick Meredith who probably knew HWA as well as anyone alive, ever commented on the incest allegations concerning HWA and his [HWA’s] youngest daughter?
In his sermon “2008: God’s Final Witness,” Ron Weinland makes statement that offers insight into the whole phenomenon of cults.
In discussing the return of Jesus, Weinland says that people will be falling on their knees in fear. “I look forward that,” he says, and the audience—meager, judging from the sound—laughs. Fantasizing about what he might say to those wretched unconverted around him, he cries out triumphantly, “You thought you had us!”
That promise of victory over all persecution must certainly be an enormous draw to cults like the Churches of God, and it explains why there were so many “odd ones” among us. In every congregation there were people who were lacked social skills and was the object of both pity and scorn. One significant aspect of the attraction to the COGs that such individuals experience must certainly be a promised vindication. Ridiculed at school and work, and when not mocked simply ignored, these poor souls long for human contact and fantasize of vengeance at the same time. What better vengeance than becoming a god?
The striking and tragic example of this type of COG member was Terry Ratzmann. He fits this mold, but he apparently couldn’t wait for God to begin breaking kneecaps.
Holy cow! Dave rattles off some pretty significant web site statistics in the first part of his 144k series. At right around 24:20 of the first sermon, he gives a list of countries and organizations that visit his web site. Major news magazines. The CIA hits it regularly. The British Prime Minister’s office. And on and on and on.
And then he literally goes on to speak ex cathedra, sounding almost Catholic in justifying it.
Really. No joke.
Finally, he makes a fairly direct reference to critics who listen to his sermons just to critique them. Now how many of us do that? :)
Update
Six hours?! There was no way I was going to listen to all that, but the first sermon seemed reasonable. But I just can’t do it—I made it through thirty minutes of the first sermon, but I gave up.
The Trumpet has the following lead-in for its cover story on the mid-terms:
The elections that awarded Democrats control of Congress marked a turning point in American history. You need to understand why.
Nothing new there—the COGs have been Democrat-bashing for as long as I can remember.
I recall during the run-up to the 1992 election, our pastor (currently with LCG) said that if Clinton won, he knew “we [wouldn’t] have long.”
Fourteen years later, they’re still saying the same thing.
The article includes this gem:
You don’t need deep biblical understanding to realize that something is dreadfully wrong in this country. America is being cursed!
“You don’t need a deep biblical understanding”—what a wonderfully succinct summary of COG exegesis.
Just below that is a link to an article entitled “America Has Waged Its Last War,” with the lead-in, “Every indication is that the U.S. will never fight again. Here is why.”
Yawn.
I skimmed the cover story, little else. At the end, though, there is an amusing advertisement for Flurry Jr.’s new book:
Could they not think of something better than “Whatever happened to HWA?” Um, he died. No one is sitting around asking that question—everyone knew that twenty years ago, Armstrong was in his 90’s. I know—I’m grasping here. Still, it’s kind of funny wording.
The whole silly mess can be downloaded here. Even if you’re not interested, give ‘er a click—it’ll show up on the PCG’s web stats as having come from here, and that make them feel warm and fuzzy.
Cult leader Pack put another announcement about his little 144k sermon on his website:
David C. Pack’s sermon series identifying the 144,000 and the Great Multitude will be posted Saturday at 5 PM (EST). This subject is not comparable to any other. There is nothing like it! In fact, there are no more urgent sermons you could hear. You will be left stunned—forever changed—and will race to tell others about it!
Oh, I have no doubt a truly critical listener will be stunned, though certainly not in the same way Pack thinks.
One question that arises from this: does uploading something on the Sabbath constitute work? Or is it part of the Work?
An object of speculation for decades, this mysterious group has never been understood until now. You will learn why it could not be unlocked until God’s time came.
It’s because Dave Pack hadn’t yet declared himself an apostle.
The problem with the endless human theories is their authors simply could not recognize this subject to be like a 1,500-piece puzzle.
Does this mean that God is now speaking directly through Dave? He’s saying there’s no human speculation in what he’s said about the 144k. He truly is providing us critics with a convenient measure to declare him completely full of bunk when this is shown to be false.
This kept them from looking for and assembling every piece, without which they had no chance of reaching the correct conclusion—of seeing the full picture. Nor then was there any chance of comprehending the colossal implications of this incredible Bible doctrine!
Colossal implications? Could our dear friend Dennis be right? Could he be laying the groundwork for declaring himself the Two Witnesses as well as an apostle, the Hidden Imam, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Kermit the Frog?
Seriously, what could the colossal implications be?!
You will also see why most will never understand the 144,000—or the Great Multitude. And recognize that when people cannot—or will not!—understand a doctrine, no matter how crucial, most attack it. This will be no exception.
No, I just attack it when it’s ridiculous, which this will no doubt be.
Each of four parts in the series contains many vital pieces of the puzzle. None can be skipped or the message is lost. Part 1 carefully introduces and sets up all that follows. No part stands alone, and each scriptural point made adds brilliant color and exquisite detail to a magnificent canvas, truly captivating, inspiring and awesome to behold!
Four parts !?!?!?
And we thought the apostle sermon was long…
I was looking forward to sitting down with a glass of wine Saturday evening after my wife shuffled off to bed and listening to Dave’s smooth voice, but four parts?! I doubt even I have the patience for that…
At Ambassador Watch, lil’ john responded to my speculation about Thiel’s seeming silence on the Bryce issue. I commented,
It’s interesting that, as far as I can tell, Thiel has not commented on this. Wonder why he’s holding back?
lil’ john replied
Dig deep :-)
You can find Bob Thiel’s comments under the section: News of Those Once Affiliated with the Global Church of God and not LCG news.
He probably delayed comment since the letter was addressed to the ministry and not to the membership (or public). From what I’ve observed over the years, that would be consistent with his style of reporting COG news.
Why put it under “News of Those Once Affiliated with the Global Church of God” instead of the seemingly more appropriate LCG news page?
I guess, in a manner of speaking, Bryce fits the category of someone “Once Affiliated with the Global Church of God.” Then again, so does Thiel. For that matter, so does Meredith.
Notice that Thiel really made no comments, other than the insinuation that AW’s source might not be reliable.
Why did you hide it there, Mr. Thiel? Why not put it in the LCG news page, since it most directly affects the LCG? Are you trying to minimize the impact? Are you waiting for confirmation from “HQ”?
Once again, a COG leader shows an incredible ability to play the pot/kettle game. Here’s Ron Weinland on religions disillusionment:
One of the harshest realities people can face is to learn that they have been lied to about their religious beliefs—that they have been deceived. This is one of the most difficult barriers in life to break. People instinctively defend their beliefs because they are foundational to their entire outlook on life—the core of their decision-making process in all matters of life. (2008: God’s Final Witness, 26)
Next week, David Pack will make the leap into the role of prophet!
He will identify “the 144,000 and the Great Multitude of Revelation 7.”
I kid you not.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is it. The beginning of the end, of a sort. This is the moment when David Pack lays it on the line for the first time. This is the moment when David Pack sets something in stone. A measure. By which we can judge his accuracy. For in setting the 144,000 ex cathedra, so to speak, Dave is setting about a chain of events that must necessarily include, some time in the near future, the proclamation that the Tribulation will shortly begin.
It’s one step closer to setting dates! And we all know that is the true sign of a real prophet, isn’t it! But wait—I mean, an apostle. Setting dates, setting numbers—isn’t that prophecy? But an apostle can’t make a prophecy.
He must be planning to muse about the possibilities.
On Gavin’s advice, I began skimming Ron Weinland’s new book, 2008: God’s Final Witness. Not only that, but while working out the last couple of nights, I listened to his sermon from the Last Great Day
of the same title.
Weinland seems to be greatly worried about legitimizing himself as one of the Two Witnesses. Imagine that.
In the book, Weinland is desperate to prove he’s not just another doomsayer who’s casting past events in a prophetic light:
Such prognosticators will only increase as disastrous events increase, and they will deceive many people. It is easy to “jump on the band wagon” (an American expression used to describe the behavior of conformists and opportunists). As disastrous events increase, they will claim that each event is some kind of sign or that it has special religious significance—after the event has already occurred. But who is presenting a time frame and getting more specific as all this increases? (4)
Indeed, he has been accurately forecasting the future for some time now. In the sermon, he proudly reminds listeners that he accurately predicted that the Y2k problem wouldn’t be a problem. That’s where it all began—that’s where he put his reputation on the line the first time. Never mind that he wasn’t the only one suggesting that the fear of global meltdown on January 1, 2000 was misplaced.
With the prophecy that 2008 is the beginning of the end, Weinland says he’s doing something similar. And then he says something surprising: “Whether this new book is from God is on the line,” he says.
In his book 2008: God’s Final Witness, Weinland makes a similar argument
So what makes what I have to say in these two books any different from what others have had to say about the end-time? You need to ask, “Who else has laid everything on the line, and in such detail, as found in these two books?” (4)
This theme even finds its way into Weinland’s first book, The Prophesied End-Time (link):
Obviously, those who made such pronouncements were weirdos, crackpots and unsound religious zealots. However, the end-time has now come, and much of the proof has already come to pass. As the next few years pass us by, people will cease to react with scorn. Instead, they will fear what is coming next!
Finally, a COG cult leader admitting that he’s putting his reputation on the line with his predictions and fear mongering. The question is, will he shut his trap when, after a few years of making a donkey of himself, nothing—absolutely nothing—comes to pass? Will he label himself a crackpot, a weirdo, an—oh, heaven forbid—unsound religious zealot? Will he admit to being a fraud?
No.
But why?
Obvious answers aside (his ego won’t let him; it would require him going out and getting a real job; he’ll be blind to the fact that he’s dead wrong), it’s simple: he still has faith in God—a sick, distorted faith, but faith nonetheless. In his mind (and in the minds of all other COG leaders, I’d suggest), if someone made a mistake, it was not God—it was he. And because humans are fallible, he can correct himself, with God’s help. In other words, he’s so wrapped up in his interpretation that even being wrong will be proof to him that he’s right. It is cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Armstrong did it in 1972, and managed to make the sheep feel that they were the ones to blame. Meredith did it when he began saying that 2015 would be the end (or was it 2012?). They all do it, because they can’t help but do it. To rise to such a position as leader of a cult necessitates such a warped perception of self that one’s perception of everything outside the self is necessarily warped too. Indeed, they feed of each other.
But Weinland has studied his mentor’s example well:
It is not my job to prove this to anyone—it is God’s! He will do so by His great power. This is all about God—His plan, His purpose, His will, His judgment, His way, and His truth. My job is to tell it like it is—as God directs me.
I am to say as Moses said, “I AM has sent me to you.” Yes, the ETERNAL God, the God of Abraham has sent me to you. I am to state clearly that I am an end-time prophet, a prophet of the God of Abraham. (16)
This is classic Armstrongism. It not-so-subtly transforms rejection of Weinland into rejection of God. Every single COG leader ultimately equates his words with God’s words, so that a rejection of the one is an automatic rejection of the other. And that is inevitable when someone is running around saying that he is only undeceived leader in Christendom.
Yet, while he’s following Armstrong’s example, Weinland has necessarily moved beyond him, thologically:
The trunk of the tree is now much bigger than when Mr. Armstrong died. Much thicker. Much greater. Much more powerful, because of the power of God Almighty and what he’s given to us.
The truck is thicker because we know when the end of the world is coming, who one of the Two Witnesses is, and the truth about the Tribulation.
God has given Weinland a lot more than he gave Mr. Armstrong, but some things never change. Namely, the sheep’s role:
I realize there are some things I’m somewhat sensitive in in all of this, but, uh, just like we heard in the prayer here, I realize we’re in a time just like Moses had to have his hands held up. That’s where we are. And that’s part of your sharing in it.
Metaphorically holding up those hands — it’s a simple job. It requires no thinking; it requires no physical exertion; it requires no voice (Do you have a tendency to want to have a voice?); it only requires obedience. And when you’re totally convinced you’ve found God’s man on earth, obedience is terribly easy.
Tens of thousands protested on the streets of Istanbul at the weekend, calling on the Pope to stay away or apologise for his remarks. (Source)
He did apologize. What do they want? Benedict to convert?! Oh—never mind…
Can you imagine the glee in hardcore COG-dom, though, if anything did happen to the Pope during this visit? Say he gets shot—what will Pack, Meredith, Weinland, et al say about it?
On September 21, 2006, the following email arrived in my inbox out of the blue:
Dear friends,
I am writing you because I wanted to remain in touch. Many of you may have known my late father, Dr. Ernest L. Martin, former head of the theology department at Ambassodor College in Pasadena, California and one of the founders of the Foundation for Biblical Research and ASK.
You may not be aware of me, but I am Ernest’s only son and I worked very closely with him for more than ten years. I have received extensive training under him in biblical research and today make my home in Jerusalem in Israel.
I regularly send updates and news from the region and will be
starting a new website shortly. If you would like me to add you to my regular mailing list, please don’t hesitate to let me know.
I would be delighted to hear from you.
Best wishes,
Samuel Martin
I hadn’t previously heard of Sam Martin but decided to take him up on his offer. And after two months I can report that I’m a satisfied customer.
As he mentioned in his note, Sam sends out occasional email reports on current events in Israel, especially those related to archaeology and the Bible. He maintains a keen interest in the subjects of his father’s research and seems eager to share his thoughts and expertise on these subjects.
One of his special areas of interest is the issue of corporal punishment for children. He has written a book on what Christian and Jewish tradition have to say about the subject, as described at his website.
I haven’t ordered a copy, but it definitely looks worthwhile. I have found Sam’s emails to be stimulating and profitable.
I once commented that, were I to re-convert to Christianity, I would be a Catholic. I promised I’d explain, so here goes.
To begin with, there really is no chance of that happening—unless there is a God and he/she/it does want me in the Catholic church. And about the only way I could be convinced of that would be a miracle of the first order, something I couldn’t possibly explain any other way. Those are few and far between, so I’ve made no plans to enroll in a catechism course.
It was not the first time I ever made such a comment. After I’d asked my then-girlfriend to marry me, we actually took a special trip to visit a particularly devout aunt (who is my wife’s godmother) and tell her the news, along with the “news” that not only am I not Catholic, but I’m not even Christian. I told her that partly to put her at ease, but immediately regretted it, for I never explained what I meant by that. She was left with the impression than I’d done some deep study into the issues that divide Catholic and Protestant theology and had come down on the side of Catholicism.
Why would I be Catholic? Simple—it’s the only organization that can come close to tracing itself all the way back to the founder of the religion. It’s purely for that reason.
Why would that be important? The fundamental problem with the Reformation mirrors the WCG reformation’s main issue: who abandoned whom? If Jesus did form a church and say he’d be with it and lead it at all times, and suddenly the reformers are saying, “Whoa! Way off track!” then the simple question is this: when did it get off track? And by what criterion can we judge that? The reason we have 10 8382 little splinters and sects and demoninations stems from the Reformers’ answer to that question: why, our own intellects, of course.
Now I have no problem with that. I am, above all, a rationalist. Or so I fancy myself. But it seems that if you’re going to buy the whole New Testament and accept that Jesus founded a church and said the things he allegedly said, then no matter how corrupt, his church would be just that—his church.
It’s at this point that Catholicism and I part ways, though, for I view this corruption as proof that the Catholic church is simply a human organization, just like all religions, and that its leadership doesn’t extend beyond Rome. In other words, I don’t subscribe to the basic tenant of Catholicism: that Jesus was God.
So my preference—if it can be called that—for the Catholic church is purely academic.
Doctrinally, I think the Catholic church is a little more logical in some things than others. Again, this is all purely hypothetical—I’m not expressing my personal beliefs here, but what seems logical to me accepting the fundamental premise of Christianity.
The doctrine of the Real Presence seems more in line with what Jesus said. After all, when he said, “Take this and eat” and so on, a lot of people left in disgust, thinking he was talking about cannibalism. Now if Protestantism is correct and they’re merely symbols, I think Jesus would have morally owed those who ran away—potential converts—an explanation, a clarification. But he never gives one.
My personal view of that doctrine, though, is that it is based on an antiquated Aristotelian view of matter: accidents and substance. What a thing looks like and what it really is. A scientist could test a host before consecration and after, and there would be no molecular change whatsoever. If there were, why, that’s just the kind of proof skeptics are looking for. But we don’t tempt God, so…
I think the Catholic interpretation of praying to saints makes a lot of sense. After all, Christians as other Christians to pray for them all the time. What’s the difference?
I also feel the Catholic view of statues is a little more reasonable than the Taliban-ic Protestant view. Protestants pray with Bible in hand, but never think that they’re praying to the Bible.
On the other hand, I think the Catholic explanation of “James, brother of Jesus” is downright laughable. In Aramaic, there are not different terms for brother and cousin, so we can interpret it “cousin” and there we go. The problem is, regardless of what language Jesus was speaking, the New Testament was written in Greek, which does have different words for brother and cousin. Using the same kind of logic applied to the Real Presence issue mentioned above, if this were so critical (as it is, for on that rests the whole ludicrous notion that Mary was a virgin her whole life), why wouldn’t the Holy Spirit have inspired all the writers to use “cousin” instead of “brother”?
Probably the weakest doctrine for me is Mary’s bodily ascension into heaven. Not a scrap of direct Biblical evidence. You have to apply types and such—awful stuff! ;)
And this brings us to the ultimate question: authority. Catholics believe the in the bodily ascension primarily because the church says it’s true. The church—read: the Pope—and the Bible have roughly equal footing. Of course the Pope can’t contradict anything in the Bible, but he can add. It reminds me of one criticism of Catholicism I read somewhere: Catholics often go to the Bible looking for justification for pre-existing beliefs.
The issue of authority is a particularly thorny one for Protestants. So much of their belief system is directly due to the Catholic church and its early pronouncements. The most striking example of this is the canon of the New Testament. This alone renders the sola scriptura argument utter nonsense, because said scriptura didn’t exist as an authoritatively grouped collection for hundreds of years. What were Christians to do before that time?
Perhaps not the most eloquent statement; perhaps not even complete, for I don’t deal with may objections that come immediately to my own mind. But still, enough to give visitors an idea of why I would be Catholic.
I hope everyone has a wonderful, family-filled Thanksgiving—one of the few times of year when we can all wish each other happiness for the holiday season, regardless of our COG affiliations.
Perhaps, following Infinity’s lead, a discussion of gratitude is in order.
What I’m thankful for:
I married a loving, patient, and intelligent woman.—She keeps me focused and reminds me of what’s important.
My life has been stable and relatively predictable.—The kids I work with haven’t had that security.
I have a job that makes me feel I’m doing something with my life.—While I do come home with homicidal urges at times, I am grateful for the chance I have to work with “at-risk” youth. It puts so many things in perspective.
Coffee—What would the morning be like without it? Not so pleasant, that’s for certain.
I finally live close to my parents again.—After ten years of living between several hundred and several thousand miles away from my parents, I now live 70 miles from them. It’s nice to see them a little more often than once every two years, which brings me to:
My parents didn’t go overboard on the whole HWA thing.—In other words, I never felt that our relationship depended on how I viewed Armstrongism. Unconditional love, in other words.
My parents are not in any splinter group.—Nothing to add to that.
My wife and I have functioning transportation.—You don’t know how important that is until it stops functioning.
I have a group of people who is interested in my ramblings.—Without you all dropping by and commenting, this would be an awfully lonely hobby-horse.
We finally bought a digital SLR.—Okay, I can be materialistic for a moment…
There are those willing to protect me.—I’m not much of a weepy patriotic type, and I was totally against the war in Iraq, but the fact that people are willing to risk death for us is a pretty amazing thing nonetheless.
I can read.—Really, it’s basic, but something to be thankful for.
There are many other things I am—and should be—thankful for, but now it’s your turn:
Insight on the PCG’s Programming Facility’s name change:
To avoid causing confusion between ourselves and Imperial College London, we have decided to change the college name.
We originally filed to register the name “Imperial College of Edmond” with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Imperial College London noticed it and temporarily agreed to our using the name. However, upon further review, they decided that they would not like us to use it. A two-year negotiation process began, where we suggested alternate names using the word Imperial.
Imperial College London was always cooperative with us. However, since we mail the Correspondence Course and other literature bearing the school name in Europe, they anticipated confusion with the name Imperial. (PGR)
Why in the world would Imperial College London worry about being confused with such a fine organization as Imperial College of Edmond? Surely it wouldn’t be because of the quality of scholarship coming out of the Edmond compound?
The anonymous author of this little snippet writes that Flurry wanted to call it Armstrong College long ago, but for some reason decided on Imperial.
The Naming of [colleges] is a difficult matter,
It isn’t just one of your holiday holy day games;
“Imperial” does have the sort of governmental ring similar to “Ambassador,” but “Armstrong College” provides the beloved acronym “AC” whereas “IC” sounds a little too close to “ICU.”
Infinity, host of Infinite Blogging, poses the following questions:
My mom talked to me tonight about her concern that there have been several people in LCG who have left to go to RCG in the last month because of concerns over liberality and modesty. Apparently modest has also been discussed by UCG in the last several months. Mom sent me links to some of their articles, which were interesting and thought-provoking. Discussion, anyone?
She provides links to a handful UCG materials dealing with modesty.
Buckblog says in a comment, in part,
As a UCG member I’ll attest to there being an increased emphasis on it. I also expect there to be another sermon on their website about the topic. This should be no surprise since society seems to become more immodest by the hour.
Flurry’s thoughts about the death of John Paul II are revealing. From the April 9 PGR:
The death of Pope John Paul II is a major turning point in world events!
I will be giving a sermon this Sabbath at headquarters about the significance of this event. We changed our planned edition of the June Trumpet in order to devote the issue almost entirely to this subject. We need to set the record straight—and we are the only ones who can do so.
The pope’s funeral is the biggest media event in history. Two billion people—one third of the world’s population—are watching. The press has been covering the funeral incessantly. Italian TV has been planning it for five years, with full-time staff specifically dedicated to it. The BBC did about the same. In the U.S., even the liberals in the media are calling the pope “holy father” and treating him like a saint. I have been shocked at how shallow their coverage has been.
Two hundred world leaders are attending the funeral. A royal wedding and a British election are adjusting their dates to fit around the funeral and the election of the new pope. This is unprecedented.
The world has never focused on any event so completely. There is no physical explanation for the frenzy we see over the pope’s death. Satan is stirring the world to fixate on that office as never before.
I believe this will prove to be the single greatest event to unify Protestants with the Mother Church.
The way everyone is exalting the office of the pope is paving the way for the next pope to do anything he wants. (PGR)
I think a year and a half on we can see how ridiculous Flurry’s statements were. Benedict XVI is most assuredly not doing anything he wants. There was no big family reunion. And the “media fixation” on the office of pope fairly quickly faded away.
Flurry (and other XCG leaders) simply have no idea of why the world was so moved by John Paul’s death. He was a great man, period. Even those who disagreed with him admired him. But with Armstrongite blinders on, all you can see is pope=evil.
At the end, Flurry makes something of a prophecy:
History shows that it’s very dangerous when the wrong man is pope! The Catholic Church has been filled with corrupt and vile popes. And we are about to meet the most corrupt and vile of them all!
In other words, Benedict XVI is the last pope! You heard it from That Prophet Profit himself.
Ladies and gentlemen, time is…trucking along about like normal.
Wow! My attempt to deal with comment spamming seems to have riled some people.
What a hornets’ nest!
Let’s take a look at these visitors’ comments one by one.
A MUST READ
A MUST READ’s comment was finally on topic!
POOR GARY,
Just because a “comment” doesn’t agree with your positions, doens’t make it “Off Topic”! You’re as bad as the organizations you criticize. The topic IS about TRUTH – if you’re afraid of the TRUTH, pack in your precious BLOG and GO HOME!! Let your readers make their own decision whether or not they want to read this important book – it will explain all the confusion, resentment and disgust they feel and points the blame properly. This will ALLOW them the CLOSURE they are so desperately looking for – why sensor that GARY??
No, I don’t care whether or not it agrees with my position. Recommending that book in that particular comment string was completely off topic. I’ve now provided a place for you to make such recommendations, so please post that comment (which you’ve posted at least three or four times now) on that post.
If it’s not because you’re disagreeing with me, why would I “sensor” you? Because you’re spamming me. It’s that simple. I welcome your ideas, but not that comment (other than in the recommendation
Pack or Six-Pack
“Pack or Six-Pack” suggested another approach to banning—requiring a response to questions. Well, as much as I like that idea, I think it’s probably not going to work.
Instead, I realize that I really shouldn’t “threaten” to block someone without providing alternatives for him. That’s why I made the “Recommendations” post. Let’s see if that works…
The funny thing is, I intend on reading that book at some point. I’m sure I’ll even—gasp—agree with some of it! I think the way the changes were handled was duplicitous at best, and I have a feeling that that will be a major theme in Flurry’s book.
flurrybot 4.1
flurrybot 4.1’s comment was a mixed bag. A few things really stood out, though:
These days, this site exists to post the ad hominem attacks your site so explicitly instructs people to ignore.
I’ll admit, my sarcasm sometimes does make me say things about the people behind ideas that I probably shouldn’t, but your comment shows a misunderstanding of what I meant in saying that ad hominem “logic” is unwelcome.
An ad hominem logical fallacy occurs when you base your argument against someone’s position on the character of the person putting forth that position. An example would be: “Adolf Hitler was an evil megalomaniac, therefore Nazism is wrong.” Or closer to this site’s topic: “Armstrongism is clearly wrong because [Fill in your favorite COG leader here] is clearly [fill in your own character-assassinating adjectives here].”
There’s a vast difference between that and saying, “Not only are the ideas behind Nazism wrong and evil because [insert long argument here], but the primary purveyor of the ideas, Adolf Hitler, was clearly a [fill in your your choice here].”
To my knowledge, I have never suggested that anything anyone said was wrong because he is evil, wrong-headed, possessed, or whatever. Perhaps I’m wrong—maybe I’ve done it on occasion and am blind to it. If so, it was wrong of me. Please point it out, and I’ll try to make amends.
But there’s something in your comment that makes me think you’re not reading too carefully:
Pack thinks he’s an apostle, has a strangle hold on his members voices and oh no, fasten your seat belt!!!...his feast pics are pixelated.
The pixelated pictures comment was a joke. Really. Probably not a very good one, but an attempt nonetheless. If you really think that I was leveling that as any sort of real criticism, then you’re not reading this site with the requisite sodium chloride.
Moving right along, the next part of the comment was even better.
Its [sic] time to get on with the rest of your life and let those who believe HWA was a good man with some sort of divine purpose slug it out for themselves.
Every so often, I get a comment like this here. It’s odd, because the commenter’s logic seems to be, “Because this website exists, it is the center of the webmaster’s universe.” It certainly isn’t. I’ve mentioned before that I put very little time into this little hobby horse. Granted, sometimes I might spend an entire hour working on one post, but it’s seldom even close to that. (I can hear the chorus: “Yes! Given the “quality” of some of the writing, we can tell how much time you spend on this!”) I just gone back and put quotes around the word “quality” as I’m reading through this because who knows whether people will actually interpret that as a joke or not!
ANON. and Douglas Becker
And in the midst of this this, something that makes me think that this is a better hobby than stamp collecting:
It’s VERY difficult to just leave, and this forum has helped us out a great deal and given us the added support we need.
And this:
Our great thanks to John Trechak, Ed Mentell, Senior, Gavin Rumney and Gary Scott, without whom many of us would still be stuck with Flurry, Pack, Meredith, United or some other group controlled by narcissists and psychopaths who have no interest in the people under their dominion.
It’s a hobby that’s sort of like a Discover Card. It pays back. Just a little bit, but it’s something. ;)
Jared
As he can often do, Jared cut right to the heart of it and responded to the cries of “Oh! Hypocrisy! Sensorship!” succinctly and effectively. I could have left well enough alone, thinking that Jared’s response would suffice, if others hadn’t jumped into the fray.
How long?
Total time writing this? Approximately 25 minutes.
Now it’s time to prepare for guests—do something truly productive, in other words…
You can see pictures of the RCG’s Feast here if you’re interested.
I was, and as such, I have a few things to say. (I feel the need to have a voice rising within me. Or maybe it’s the chili we had for dinner…)
First off, the quality of the pictures is horrid. Very pixelated. Come on, Dave—you know that future kings should be producing much higher quality material!
Most fascinating (morbidly so) is the fact that this pictorial gives some idea of the number of RCG members. I made some rough estimates based on a few of the pictures:
At Niagara Falls, it looks like there were maybe 200 in attendance.
Snowbird, Utah hosted about the same as Niagara Falls.
Attendance at Pandy, Wales seems to have topped out at just under twenty.
George, South Africa had eleven in attendance, including children.
Umhlanga, South Africa host sixteen brethren. Rather, sixteen people, including four children.
The Mombasa, Kenya site was huge—sixty-seven, including thirty-seven children.
There were somewhere in the neighborhood of sixteen attending the Estancia, Philippines site—about 30% of them children.
Lagos, Nigeria hosted what appears to be thirteen people.
After the final pictures, there’s a note:
There were a few other smaller Feast sites in various parts of the world that are not included here.
One has to wonder how small those sites were.
So how big is Dave’s church? Pathetically small, I’d say.
True to form, Dave made sure that the pictorial centered appropriately on the Apostle himself.
In the section about Snowbird, the brochure gushes,
While it was sad to see some traveling Headquarters ministers leave midway through for the other Feast sites, a high point of the Feast was the arrival of Mr. Pack, along with another Headquarters minister.
A high point of the Feast was the arrival of Mr. Pack, along with the Magi and trumpeting angels. The light show that accompanied Mr. Pack’s grand entrance was heavenly, as was the celestial choir, singing a medley of Dwight Yoakam Armstrong hitsdirges hymns.
There is a tinge of tragedy to the pictorial, though, and I say that in complete earnest. The pictures of the children’s choirs are just heart breaking. I look at them and think how they’re growing up in a demented world, being taught that black is white, up is down, and that David Pack is the single most important human on Earth today. They’re being lied to, every day, about every single thing.
There’s also a picture of some young teens:
I’m trying to decide whether it’s a good thing or bad thing that so much of the RCG population is so young. On the one hand, they’re being brainwashed, as I mentioned earlier. On the other, it’s hard to believe a significant portion of them will stick with it once they’re out on their own. I can’t help but hope that once they’re exposed to the criticism of their church and their cult leader, once they learn the true history of their church, their apostle, and the Mamma Hen which gave birth to them all, that they’ll shrug their shoulders and say, “Whatever.”
I’d love to know what these kids are thinking, but since Dave has declared it a sin for them to have a voice, we’ll never now.
Dennis alluded to something Mr. Thiel posted on his website from Spanky about the coming merger/take-over. Yes, I’m talking treating it as fact even though they’ve denied it. If I’m wrong, no big deal; if I’m right, I look like a prophet and can start my own church and retire from the income.
Greetings fellow ministers! Many thanks to all of you for your help and inspiration to the brethren through the Feast! From all reports it was an outstanding Feast this year—and the vast majority of the brethren are still greatly encouraged as I hear from talking to many of you—plus reports coming in here.
However, a few of our brethren have expressed concern about the recent visit to Charlotte from two of the leaders of the United Church of God. As you know, both Jim Franks and Clyde Kilough recently visited us here—after talking with Dr. Winnail about making just a “social” visit with us to strengthen our friendship and to explore ideas in a few areas where we could cooperate. Let me say immediately that they did not—in any way—try to talk about a coming “merger” or anything of the kind! We certainly did not bring that up. In fact, I kind of “squashed” even speculation on such a thing by pointing out early on that we each have totally separate agendas, different forms of government—which I expressed were very important to God—and different approaches to doing the Work.
However, we did explore areas where, as “separated brethren,” we could still cooperate and express the Christian love to one another as we ought to do. We discussed—briefly in each case—how if an actual sex pervert were to be disfellowshipped or put out of our ministry or membership, we should let them know—and vice versa. Anything like that should be “shared” so that we can at least not, unwittingly, have this type of individual just “slip over” from one church to another. We all agreed enthusiastically with this.
Also, we agreed to share information with each other and pray about outside attacks on the Churches of God. As during the “Receivership” crisis of 1979, when even the Catholic Church filed an “amicus brief” [friend of the court brief] showing their support for the privacy of churches from government intervention and regulation, we all should be mutually concerned about outside attacks on our peoples from the government or from any other source. As fellow Christians—even though we have different perspectives on government and doing the Work—we should constantly “love one another” as Jesus commanded us to do toward all men!
You need to realize, some of you “stricter” brethren, we are not dealing with communists or Buddhists. We are dealing with others who believe many of the same things we do—though they have a different approach to government, to certain doctrines and to the zealous approach we wish to have in preaching the full Truth to the world. Yet, understanding these differences and not weakening our own agenda in that regard, we should and must love one another and try to help all men—and especially those who understand much of the Truth we do.
So let us go forward with a balanced approach to this matter. And please be assured that Christ is guiding us here in Charlotte to maintain our doctrinal and corporate integrity and continue doing the Work which Christ has called us to do!
It’s interesting that the first (and really only) concrete example he gives about cooperation regards sexual morality.
Beginning in early 2005, the PCG began encrypting the PGR:
Because e-mail is not a very secure mode of communication, Mr. Flurry has requested that, beginning next week, the pgr be encrypted. The data will not be viewable without being decrypted first. In effect, it will mean that every minister will now need a password to decrypt the pgr each week. (PGR)
Mr. Thiel wrote the following in response to speculation about a merger between the UCG and LCG:
On other matters, I see many at the anti-COG sites suggesting that LCG and UCG intend to merge some day, in contradiction to what I posted here a couple of days ago. One went so far is to say that somehow I will change my mind and say that I always supported such a merger. All are in error on those points (though this does not mean individual members or locations may not change affiliations) as I have no intention of being part of UCG and do not believe any real merger between the two is possible. And yes, while I do know certain details of what they discussed, those discussions have nothing to do with any type of merger. And while I told our local congregation what the specifics were, I do not feel it is needful to post the details here, but will let UCG and/or LCG provide public statements if they wish. They have nothing to hide about the meeting and are not going to merge.
It’s interesting that Thiel writes that he has “no intention of being part of UCG,” as if that would even be possible after such a merger. UCG and LCG would likely cease to exist and they’d come up with some jazzy new name.
And so, what do you think the new name could be? Jokes and serious suggestions welcome.
Admitting that this might raise a few eyebrows, Bob Thiel posts the following from a Winnail report:
This week, Mr. Clyde Kilough, President of the United Church of God, and Mr. Jim Franks, Operations Manager for Ministerial Services of the United Church of God, paid an informal visit to our Headquarters here in Charlotte. They toured the office facility and met our Headquarters staff. It was a cordial visit and provided us with an opportunity to communicate about mutual concerns facing the Church of God.
Informal visit?!?
What would an informal visit? Let’s imagine the “real world” equivalent: Bush meets with Ahmadinejad? Kim Jung Il visits Seoul? Benedict and Ali Khamenei have a Wednesday afternoon chat?
How could the leader of probably the largest splinter go to the White House of one of the other major splinters and it be called simply an “informal visit”?
Mr. Thiel’s comment afterward, in italics, was,
RC Meredith and I discussed this meeting a few hours after it occurred. He mentioned that he specifically stated at the beginning of the meeting that LCG has no interest in any type of merger with UCG. He stated UCG and LCG have different works, differing governments, and differing focuses. He told me that they concurred with all of those comments. And he told me I could post about it if I thought it would be helpful.
Does this mean that Meredith is talking to Thiel as if Thiel is some kind of legitimate reporter? That Thiel can now talk to the Presiding Evangelist himself?!
That alone is big enough for me to crank up the old XCG Blog machine (forgive me—I have a tendency to want to have a voice). But there’s more.
Thiel continues,
Essentially, the meeting was used to discuss certain areas of mutual interest and when better communications between the two groups may be appropriate. After the meeting, Dr. Winnail, RC Meredith, Dibar Apartian (and I believe Richard Ames) had lunch with the two UCG representatives.
What kind of communications do they need? “We need a unit on the left flank! Franks, can you send any of your men?”
Indeed, it doesn’t make any sense for there to be extensive communication if the groups constitute “different works, differing governments, and differing focuses.”
Thiel, just to make sure we don’t miss the point, concludes,
There is no merger in the works. And nothing like that is planned or hoped for. What is hoped for (and I even told this to UCG’s Aaron Dean when I spoke with him Monday evening) is that UCG members who wish to be faithful to the teachings of the old WCG will realize LCG is truly the remnant of the Philadelphia portion of the COG and come with us—that is RC Meredith’s position and he repeated it to me earlier this week.
Aaahh! It’s a stealth attack! Announced on the internet.
We’re not going to merge with that UCG filth. We just want the members to realize that we are the true church, not they. That we are God’s chosen, not the RCG, GCG, WGACCG (That’s the “Who Gives a Crap Church of God.”) or even—gasp—the UCG.
Let’s read that again, with a little bit of emphasis added. And let’s make sure those who need to know do know.
Attention Clyde Kilough and Jim Franks
Here is what the LCG is hoping to accomplish from the improved communications you discussed with them at their headquarters:
UCG members who wish to be faithful to the teachings of the old WCG will realize LCG is truly the remnant of the Philadelphia portion of the COG and come with us
You’ve been duped! You’ve been snookered!
It’s amazing that these folks are announcing their plans, though. “We got you in here to talk to you about improving communications but we didn’t tell you why we want better communications. That’s a secret we’ll keep to ourselves. We won’t tell anyone. Except maybe Bob Thiel.”
Bob, what were you thinking?
“That’s right. We’re planning a massive invasion of France sometime in June. We’re looking at June 5, but Ike might have to push that back a day or so. We’ve given him some wiggle room with that, and we trust he’ll make the right decision.”
Now, addressing Clyde Kilough and Jim Franks once again: What are you going to do about this? Why would you go into talks with the LCG about improving communications, then hear their real, sinister plans, and continue?
Answer: you’re probably hoping to do the same thing. As the rumors of Meredith’s increasing loony-factor grow, you hope to do some plundering yourself. You see conservatives jumping off the LCG ship and swimming over to Pack’s little plank of wood (Hey, the splinter analogy works here too!) and you just thought you could pick off some of the more liberal (Oops—did I say that? There are no liberal COGers!) members…
That’s what they meant by “certain areas of mutual interest.”
This just sounds so familiar…
Remember that stupid baby vulture that’s always trying to get Bugs, and he’s constantly telling Bugs that he’s going to be dinner?
Wait!
Wait!
Even better: COG Spy vs. Spy.
Any thoughts on what the next frame of this cartoon saga will be like?
While reading through the Flurryian PGRs, I made notes that I intended on posting at XCG. I’m just now getting around to the final ones, hence the lack of timeliness… The RCG has already shown that it will willingly “diagnose” as “demon possessed” individuals exhibiting symptoms of autism. And the PCG has also indicated that it is not willing to make such rash diagnoses. (See Maggie: Intermission.)
In the Pastor General’s Report of 25 December 2004, we read:
Extreme care must be taken in determining whether to invite to services new contacts who have mental disorders such as schizophrenia. There is no rush, and ministers must take adequate time so you can be absolutely certain they’re being called by God. (25 December 2004 PGR
Two things to note: first, they admit that such things exist. I’m curious how, though, they might differentiate between schizophrenia and “demon possession.”
Second, they’re sort of saying, “Well, you know, we really don’t want those kind of people in the church. You need to be absolutely sure they can give generously, and dig deep they’re being called by God.”
According to Martin from “A Puerto Rican’s Life Jouney,” there was a typical Spanky quote in the FOT 06 opening message:
“They are left-wing, liberal, communist, pinkos” – Mr. Meredith describing the United States’ media and their portrayal of the news during his Opening Night message. (Source)
What is it about RCM and his obsession with homosexuality?
It seems yet another LCG elder has run to Dave’s cult:
Another LCG Elder Joins RCG: Those interested may read Mr. Chris Lomas’s letter (posted on Mr. Syd Hull’s website) explaining why he left the Living Church of God. (Source: RCG Website)
Two things: first, this is the fourth “major” defection from LCG to RCG. And they’re all hoping to be one of the Two Prophets, I’m sure. (They probably haven’t read Dennis’ piece)
Second, this is the second time that Syd Hull’s web site has been used to announce something like this. I’m wondering if this will be a trend.
In my 26-year experience as a Pastor, I had managed to meet 23 of the Two Witnesses of Revelation. I am tempted to say 11 pairs and one who thought he was both, but that’s not how it really was. Every one of these was a long male, sometimes a pastor, sometimes a member, often times a lone religious renegade that no church would claim. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept of the Two Witnesses, these are the two final humans, but some say they will be the literally resurrected Moses and Elijah, Moses and Aaron, or Amos and Andy depending,, who will tell all of us on the earth why the end has come. As the Bible says, “This Gospel of the Kingdom of God will be preached to all the world, and then shall the INCOME, oops sorry, end come.” The competition among those Pastors and Apostles that are hoping to win the title and at times behave more like competing to be Larry, Moe and Curly, but that would be Three Witnesses, will probably be more astounding than any Two Witnesses of Revelation. The description is found here in Revelation 11.
REVELATION 11:3 “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. (NKJV)
While I personally feel that the chance of any two human beings being taken seriously in this role is about nil, it is none-the-less a very big part of the prophetic hopes of many literalists, especially those in what have become the remaining splinters of the now defunct Worldwide Church of God. It still exists, but it just doesn’t know it has become irrelevant and uninfluential in the world of theology and religion. Tis more like a glorified Sunday School than a Church, but I spare you. The Two Witnesses would never come from the Worldwide Church of God because yelling, “woe unto you, we don’t know the answer to that either, be warmed and filled…” etc, is just not a credible message these days and certainly not scary enough. The kind Jesus of the Gospels gets lost somewhere between John and Revelation as well. Angry books make angry churches.
However, even if there were ever such a modern day thing as the Two Witnesses, here is why it would not work. No two human males in the entire Church of God menagerie of splits, splinters, slivers and dust mites could ever get along long enough to come up with the same coherent message. Frankly, they would smite each other before they ever smote you and I.
The Book of Revelation, which probably is not near as up to date for today as most think, nor written with the events of today in mind as many are taught requires the Two Witnesses to get along and agree with each other for a time of 1260 days or about three and half years. No way! I have yet to meet any two of the Church of God ministers, especially the Lone Rangers of “My Church is the one true church,” mentality to be able to agree on anything or get along for much more than a few hours, if that. This is way short of the time these two men will have to live, eat and agree together on the next day’s rants against the people. Let me illustrate what I mean.
Ronald Weinland was a minister in the WCG, then a minister in the United Church of God (UCG), but a number of years ago declared himself a prophet—(even though I prefer the idea that Churches be NON-PROPHET) he did that many years after the Philadelphia Church of God’s Gerald Flurry did the same. Both of these minister types were Worldwide Church of God pastors before the crash. Both went on to start their own one man shows. In an email inquiry of Mr. Weinland, by Dr. Robert Thiel of the Living Church of God, as to whether or not he claims to be one of the Two Witnesses, Mr. Weinland replies:
”Yes I do make the claim. I am one of the witnesses. The subject is already covered in sermons on our website and will be covered far more thoroughly in a new book that will be out before next Feast of Tabernacles.
So we have that settled. We have the first of the Two Witnesses, even though he was never on my original list of 23. So now we have 24. Hey nice! That’s the same number of Elders around the throne of the Son, or the hours in the day around the SUN, whatever you like!
Next enter David C. Pack, founder and sole authority in the Restored Church of God, also a sliver offshoot of Christianity. While Mr. Pack has never said that that he is one of the Two Witnesses, he has said in sermons that they will come out of the Restored Church of God, come UNDER his supervision as Witnesses are not higher than Apostles, of which he is one, and that HE will train them for their 3.5 year assault on the world. Pretty cool stuff to spend your life planning I think!
At any rate, Dr. Thiel goes on to note:
”There is a rumor going around, which I never posted, that Ronald Weinland claims that David Pack is the other of the two witnesses. This is not true. When I asked him, I received the following response: ’No I haven’t said such a thing about Dave. We are not going in the same direction.’
I did post the above response so that those interested in the truth would realize that the rumor was false. I do have a concern that now that this rumor is out and now that Ronald Weinland claims to be one of the two witnesses, that it would not surprise me if one who has taken titles to himself (Gerald Flurry comes to mind) may decide they need to claim to be one of the two witnesses.”
So now we have problems. There are my 23 of the Two Witnesses, Gerald Flurry of the Philidelphia Church of God…maybe in time, Ron Weinland for sure and the two, yet to be announced in the Restored Church of God under Dave Pack. Let’s see, 23+1+1+2=27 Two Witnesses. And these are just the ones I know of. Perhaps there is significance in 3×3x3 Witnesses, but I don’t know what it might be so forget that.
Ok, but here is the problem even bigger than too many of them.
“5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. (NKJV)
Of course people are going to want to harm these guys. At least if they are
the ones mentioned. And with that much firepower, well they say way too much
now in Church that can’t be backed up with reality, so someone is going to get burned. Letting them smite us all “as often as they desire,” is just going way overboard on God’s part. I think some of the smitting could degenerate into a bad case of “oh yeah…blam,” “oh yeah…bash,” “Oh yeah…crunch.” A Way too human a way of getting everyone’s attention. Personally I think, with the bad record churches and men have for being false prophets and witnesses and just plain looney, I would prefer that God just call a weekend seminar, serve nice food, and personally explain to all of us just what seems to be the problem. I respond better to that kind of thing rather than having people I don’t trust in the least think they can smite me at will for not believing them personally. I still feel that when we speak to God, it can be called prayer, but when God speaks to us, we might need medication and not a following… But the real problem and the real reason we don’t have to worry about the Two Witnesses coming out of the Church of God movements that have sprung from the demise of the Worldwide Church of God is best summed up in the observation by Mr. Weinland himself.
”’No I haven’t said such a thing about Dave. We are not going in the same direction.’”
This is our salvation! The fact is that no two men in any of these groups can get along for even a minute is the key that unlocks the truth of Revelation on this topic! Mr. Weinland can’t abide Mr. Pack. Mr. Pack won’t credential Mr. Weinland or Mr. Flurry. Mr. Flurry can’t stand Mr. Pack and doesn’t know Mr. Weinland and my personal list of 23 all agree that no way are these new guys invited into the final contestants for the job! Can two walk together unless they be agreed? The answer is no, so in no way will any of these guys be the Two Witnesses for 3.5 seconds, much less years.
Now Mr. Pack insists that he will select the Two Witnesses and train them out of his own Church. I doubt that becaue Mr. Pack so love titles, “The Watcher”, “End Time Apostle”’ “Mr.” etc, that I am sure he’ll want to be, hmmm…both of the Two Witnesses himself. There is more control over what is said, less overhead and less dispute over who is the chief smiter, firebreather, plague giver, blood maker and drought causer. Somewhere and somehow, Mr. Pack will find a way to give a four to eight hour sermon on how the Greek word for ”two” is really the word for “twoo” as in “true” and Witnesses is really supposed to be singular. It is the Twoo Witness, which of course, will be Mr. Pack.
The good thing will be that if the others oppose this, he can incinerate them with the word of his mouth and plague ‘em. Well maybe not in that order. Well anyway, won’t happen in reality.
So relax everyone! Since no two male ministers of the same group or Church of God, and certainly no two in opposing groups can get along long enough to remotely fulfill the 3.5 years the Two Witnesses of Revelation will have to work together, we are all safe! Any two from this bunch will plague, drought, smite and incinerate EACH OTHER long before the sun goes down on the first day of their prophecy!
While reading through the Flurryian PGRs, I made notes that I intended on posting at XCG. I’m just now getting around to the final ones, hence the lack of timeliness… I wish I were making this up.
Family at Funerals
When performing a funeral, do not allow unconverted family members to intrude into the ceremony and dictate how things should be done. For example, it would be inappropriate for them to insist on giving part of the eulogy, or insisting that Protestant hymns be sung. The minister should run the show. We want to do the funeral God’s way, and sometimes this requires insisting that if they want to change the ceremony, they will have to get someone else to do it. (10 December 2004 PGR)
Care not for the pain and suffering of family members. If they can’t be comforted God’s way, then screw ‘em!
It seems that the RCG has been doing some advertising on Technorati as well as Google. (Perhaps Google serves up the Technorati ads? I’m not sure, and I don’t really care to check.)
At any rate, when you click on through to the larger version (by clicking on the image or here), you’ll notice the text is awfully, well, un-RCG-ish.
Free Sermon Library
Looking for powerful church sermons? Hundreds of downloads instantly. www.thercg.org
That bold “of” is a little confusing, as is the whole ad. Most such ads are for sites that lazy pastors can go to and download sermon notes for this week’s sermon. But that’s hardly what Dave’s site is for.
So, I wonder—did the RCG write the text of this ad? How well did they choose their keywords? And just what do people think when they click on through?
Well, now, thanks to Denee’s article, they’re probably thinking, “Oh, these idiots again…”
Bob Thiel still hasn’t updated COG-Writer. I wonder what’s up with that?
Update
I moved this from the right sidebar because it was going to be too long and mess up my formatting… A reader wrote in to say that Mr. Thiel had updated. Indeed, on his News of Those Once Affiliated with the Global Church of God page, he mentioned what I’d written about the RCG blog article. But it’s dated 10/05/06.
Additionally, he includes the following quote from me:
Indeed, why do you care? Who reads these blogs? The authors’ friends! Imagine that! They’re not trying to create art. They’re not trying to be deep and insightful. They’re kids for God’s sake! Who cares who cares? In the end, blogging for personal expression is a waste of time.
That last bit about “blogging for personal expression is a waste of time” was an inset—it was a quote from the article, not my original words.
It seems the RCG has issued clarification about Kevin Denee’s recent screed:
This magazine (www.thercg.org/youth/), along with realtruth.org and thercg.org, is part of the world’s largest biblical websites, which receive millions of visits and downloads each year.
The article you are about to read has received a tremendous response, ranging from those who agreed, those who liked parts of it, and others who took issue with the topic. As you read the article, please keep in mind that it was written specifically to the youth of The Restored Church of God, with the purpose of setting an internal policy.
While many religious organizations routinely set unbiblical internal policies for its membership (such as “dancing is prohibited” or “drinking is a sin”), The Restored Church of God sets policies founded on basic biblical principles as taught by Jesus Christ. In this case, our intent is to explain the widespread misuse of blogs.
Please feel free to browse our web pages and read the vast library of books, booklets, articles, magazines, reports, lessons and audio material we provide free of charge.
They’ve also inserted links to various booklets within the article. So while it was clearly written for internal policy reasons initially, the RCG is desperately trying to make the most of this attention.
Turns out, lots of people have been blogging about apostle Dave’s latest edict. Lots of stuff at Google. There are lots of results at Technorati about it as well.
It even made it onto the Drudge Retort, with our beloved Dennis Diehl quoted. Indeed, I believe Mr. Diehl is responsible for the whole thing. Thanks to a mention he got at whatreallyhappened.com.
“Drudge!?” Pack says with glee when he reads this. (Do you read it Dave? Or do you have one of your minions keep an eye on this site?) Well, calm yourself—it’s one consonant off…
I clicked through to a few of them. Most of them have never heard of the Restored Church of God before this nonsense.
One blogger made the following comment about “legitimate business use”
Would you prefer [the kids in your church] masterbate [sic]? Because if you do, I know this legitimate business Web site you can go to that can help with that.
That’s good.
A lot of them picked up on the irony of all of Pack’s sites basically being blogs in and of themselves:
Irony… Good Christian kids don’t BLOG… BUT read my BLOG… er… articles and visit my website…. NICE!!! (Source)
This of course will be the thing that catapults the RCG into the public eye, where they’re bound to be hated and spat upon…and blogged about. For a couple of days.
Seriously, though, I would bet all I have in my savings account (not that much, truth be told) that Pack will mention the number of mentions this dumb thing got as proof of his apostle-hood, of his holiness, of his Dave-ness.
Names and locations changed. Autumn won’t officially begin for several weeks, but there’s a chill in the air this morning accompanied by a sunny, rich, blue sky, so there’s only one thing I can think of. The Feast. The same thing happened the other day when I bounded out of the house to go to the store.
It’s something about the combined chill and sun. I guess that’s just a facet of autumn, and that leads to the obvious conclusion—I’ll forever associate fall with the Feast of Tabernacles.
This year, as with the previous several, I’ve no idea when the actual festivals are held. And I suppose there are more FOTs out there these days than anyone could have possibly imagined twenty years ago.
I go to Google and search, “Feast of Tabernacles 2002.” Several are listed, but the UCG’s site seems to be the best bet. Not the fringe of the fringe.
I see a link to the “2002 Festival Housing Brochure” and suddenly more and more comes back to me. The excitement when we got those silly listings of hotels where we were “approved” to stay probably kept me up several nights when I was young, for the FOT was my Christmas. I guess I was feeling all the anticipation my friends in school would be experiencing around early December.
For some reason I find myself thinking almost always of that last real Feast I spent with John, when we shared the room in Chattanooga. That was the Feast I met Tina at, I believe, and that would make it 1993. (It took me a few moments to think that through. Everything with Tina is in relation to my senior year in college.) Nine years ago.
I went to another site, this time for CGI. They have a feast site in Jekyll Island, Georgia. Just as the WCG had for so many years. And just as the UCG is having this year. Two competitors having the Feast in the same city. I wonder if it’s happening anywhere else.
And I wonder if members of these churches are being told this, and if so, what are they being told to do. Since the CGI is an old-school schism, existing long before HWA died, there’s enough distance there to ensure few members really know each other. Following HWA’s instructions, though, those who’d stayed in the WCG and are now in the UCG probably shunned any friends who went with Garner Ted when he founded CGI, and so any friendships that might have existed have probably long been dead.
On a side note, a little surprise on the CGI site:
The Church of God, International has many congregations and we always welcome visitors and newcomers. Our worship services are open to the public and there is no pre-screening or interview conducted prior to your visit.
That is almost shocking. No “pre-screening!” It’s funny that they even have to advertise that. I’ll bet any non-COGer would read that and scratch her head. And it would leave someone in the RCG or PCG shaking her head, saying, “Oh—poor, poor deceived people.”
Another interesting quote: “Faith is the sure knowledge that God exists, and that He will accomplish those things He has promised.” Faith is knowledge? That’s an easy out.
On the LCG’s site, there’s not even a mention of the Feast. I guess they disseminate that info only through the congregations, as befits a proper Armstrongian organization.
I’ll check the RCG, but what for? Of course they won’t make any mention of it. Nor will the PCG.
Pack has a new Ambassador Youth out—that filthy little rag for his teen cult members. It has an article by Kevin D. Denee called “Blogs—and God’s Youth.” The lead-in reads
The “blogosphere” enables people to share daily journals, photographs and audio—instantly. But should teenagers and others in the Church “express themselves” to the world through blogs?
Well, obviously, if you’re asking this question, the answer’s going to be “No.”
The first reason is reasonable enough: online pedophiles looking for new victims. Still, with a little education from and involvement of parents, I don’t see this as an insurmountable issue.
The real problem is in the next subheading:
An Era Grows a “Voice”
That’s right—we’re supposed to be submissive, remember? God’s people don’t have an opinion, and they certainly don’t care to express it. They have absolute faith in their God-chosen leaders, and so their opinion about anything is irrelevant.
It all goes back to the difference between Laodicea and Philadelphia:
The name Laodicea means “the people rule, judge and decide.” This is because the people of the Laodicean era have taken on the conditions, attitudes and actions of the society in which they live. This trend is seen in the splinter groups, where lay members dictate how their church is run and what they are taught. Obviously, democratic governments and their leaders are held accountable by the people. Corporations are often owned and directed by the people at large (stockholders). Families today are directed by the impulses of children—another form of the people ruling.
In such a climate, politicians must cater to the whim of the people’s demands—in other words, the people have a “voice.” Parents will have talks with four year-olds to get their opinion on something. CEOs must keep their shareholders happy. In an age when people expect to be listened to, everyone believes their opinion counts. For example, every citizen in the United States—no matter his experience, qualification or stature—can criticize his leaders and vote them out of office.
But what does this have to do with blogs?
The Internet—and more specifically blogs—has enabled everyone to have a voice on any matter. Now everyone’s thoughts are “published” for all to see. Whether or not it is effective, as soon as something is posted the person has a larger voice. It often makes the blogger feel good or makes him feel as if his opinion counts—when it is mostly mindless blather!
In the end, blogging for personal expression is a waste of time. See—most of what you’re going to say in a blog is useless, mindless crap. Nobody cares, and the only thing you’re really doing is making yourself think you’re more important than you actually are. Remember: you are nothing, and your only responsibility is to pay the salary of those of us in Wadsworth who have the spiritual acumen (not to mention the brains) to lead you where you need to go, to tell you what you need to know, and to correct you when you go astray.
This has grown so out of control it is routine for a person to start a daily blog entry with a single word that details his or her mood. A blog entry will start: “Current mood: ____” The level of shallowness and emotional immaturity this represents is astonishing! In the grand scheme of things, why would the world at large care?
Indeed, why do you care? Who reads these blogs? The authors’ friends! Imagine that! They’re not trying to create art. They’re not trying to be deep and insightful. They’re kids for God’s sake! Who cares who cares?
People naturally want to make a mark in this world; they want to make a difference, and many believe blogs will allow them to do this. However, most blogs, especially by teenagers, serve as nothing more than public diaries. (Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with a personal diary, as long as it is kept private.) Although certain professional weblogs can make a positive difference within some elements of society, teen blogging does not.
Blogs being labeled as therapeutic is merely a shallow excuse. Some say illicit drugs are therapeutic—does that mean they should be used? Obviously not. I could have written this much more succinctly: “You will never make a difference in this world, so shut up.”
Stop and consider. The biggest mark you will ever make is to build God’s character and be born into the God Family. Blogging will not help you achieve this.
No—teens reading other teens’ blogs can’t come to anything. They can’t encourage each other. They can’t advise one another. They can’t be friends and just listen (rather, in this case, read).
Now, I will readily admit that there’s a lot of things in the blogosphere that I have no interest in reading. Further, I also feel that a lot of teens are going into too much detail, risking all kinds of things in doing so. But really—why should Pack care?
The article goes on and on from there, but it’s the same tripe. Blogging is vanity, idleness, and so on…
Right near the end, though, we get the real gem (emphasis added): no one—including adults—should have a blog or personal website
Should teenagers and others in the Church express themselves to the world through blogs? Because of the obvious dangers; the clear biblical principles that apply; the fact that it gives one a voice; that it is almost always idle words; that teens often do not think before they do; that it is acting out of boredom; and it is filled with appearances of evil—blogging is simply not to be done in the Church. It should be clear that it is unnecessary and in fact dangerous on many levels.
Let me emphasize that no one—including adults—should have a blog or personal website (unless it is for legitimate business purposes).
When this policy, now being instituted, was discussed with Mr. Pack and other Headquarters ministers, there was not a shadow of doubt in anyone’s mind that blogs are something youth should not be doing in any way.
As has been said before, Jesus Christ and His Church have standards. Those who desire fewer standards should go to the splinters or to the world.
It’s all about Thiel!
First Syd, the new evangelist, makes a reference to the inappropriateness of blogs on his letter to church members, and now this.
And here’s the ultimate irony: at the bottom of Syd’s defection announcement on Pack’s blog the RCG’s website, we read:
For those interested, you may read his truly incredible account posted on [Hull’s] personal website.
Oh, that’s rich.
The article speaks to a strange irony in the RCG. The cult’s website is the prime indicator of God’s favor, and Pack has spent a lot of time justifying that and talking about what a blessing all this technology is. But it’s technology that threatens the ultimate, all-encompassing, oppressive authority his cult is based on. The Internet allows people to do things like I do and Gavin does: criticize the jerk. So it’s both a blessing and a bane for Pack.
I work at a day treatment facility for troubled youth. They wind up in our program either through long-term suspension or via adjudication.
It can be a tough bunch of kids.
Recently, I set up a blog for the whole program with the aim of using it as a way for students to write for an actual audience, instead of just writing for the teacher, as is often the case.
But for that, we need an audience.
That’s obvious enough.
Since I’m just trying to get the kids excited about the idea of writing on a regular basis, I’m not having them do much of any correction. Small steps…
Read it with a smile. So I’m asking any willing XCG readers to pop over to akacoolpeople.com and read what the kids have written so far, make a few comments (even if it’s “Hey, that sounds really great!”) and—most importantly—to keep checking back from time to time to make comments. It’ll be slow for a while (right now, there are only a few posts—two of them mine), but I’m hoping that as kids get comments, it will encourage them to write more. (And obviously enough, I’m looking for comments to the kids’ posts, not my own!)
Additionally, if you yourself have a blog or web site and would be willing, give “aka cool people” a mention and see if you can steer some more traffic our way.
I finally read closely Sydney Hull’s letter to LCG brethren (available here). It contains quite a few revelations—though I don’t think the ones he was intending.
Random notes.
Salary
When I finally read it carefully, I was shocked to read this:
Mr. Meredith and Mr. Winnail knew I was decreasing my pay from the understood 420,000 Rands (60,000 USD) a year to less than 64,000 Rands (9,000 USD), and that I had the church office in my home.
the understood $60,000 a year I wasn’t shocked about the salary of 60k. (In case you’re wondering, 60k in South Africa is like 57k in Charlotte.) Instead, what was surprising is the frank admission of the salary.
Rank
As always, one’s place in the hierarchy is of prime importance in Hull’s letter
Before Mr. Winnail was raised to Evangelist, I submitted to him in Africa even though I was of higher rank. This alone shows that God’s government is not present in LCG, and that things are upside down.
I submitted to him [...] even though I was of higher rank Why would he “submit” to Winnail? Because he came from “headquarters”? Because he represented the Presiding Evangelist?
At this point, a Pack-ian question comes to mind: in an Armstrongian power structure, just how is an evangelist to raise someone to that same level? Pack does have a logical point when he says that, if a XCG follows the Armstrongian model, there is no precedent for someone raising an individual to his own rank. Of course, all that depends on accepting the whole Armstrongian model, which a think individual won’t do.
Armstrongian Senility
Armstrong was notorious for changing his mind—for telling a minister to do something, and then getting upset at him for doing it. It was connected to Armstrong’s senility, I’m sure.
Hull’s letter provides evidence that Meredith is following his mentor’s example:
In a telephone call with Mr. Meredith (and Mr. Apartian) on Tuesday, September 19, he stated, after interrogating me about my intentions, that I would not be removed as Regional Director, and that he wanted me to come to Charlotte for three days in November for Council meetings. [...] How can I trust him when only a few days earlier Mr. Winnail wanted to oust me with his approval? Am I to believe Mr. Meredith when he told me Mr. Winnail has been essentially acting on his own and that he was “new to his job,” in other words, this was all due to his job inexperience? The alternative is to believe Mr. Winnail, who wrote in his August 24th letter, when describing my removal in favour of a novice, “…it is probably time that we carefully consider some administrative changes in South Africa. Mr. Meredith, Mr. Apartian and I have discussed this at some length and we are of the same mind on this issue.” Who is lying?
Who is lying? Everyone. No one. It doesn’t matter. All that matters is what the Presiding Evangelist wants now. That’s the Armstrongian model in action.
Souring Cream
The cream rises to the top, we’re told. That’s why those high in the ministerial hierarchy are there—they’re cream. They’re just a little better than everyone else.
Well, that “cream” in LCG is souring:
By reasoning that I am too old at 76, Mr. Winnail shows a disdain for experience that comes with age. Extending that notion further, he then must assume that Mr. Meredith, also 76, must be pushed aside as well
Good points, Syd, but it also highlights the fact that you guys are approaching your Expiration Date. Unless you plan to live as long as Armstrong, which you do:
Would Living’s leaders have retired Mr. Armstrong in 1968 when he turned 76? Look at all he accomplished in the following years, which were the prime golden years of his ministry. In effect, like other splinter leaders, Mr. Meredith has cleverly disfellowshipped Mr. Armstrong from the Living Church of God by changing and liberalizing so much of what he taught.
This passage also provides pretty clear evidence that many—a majority of?—conservative XCG members virtually worship Herbert Armstrong. “Mr. Meredith has cleverly disfellowshipped Mr. Armstrong from the Living Church of God”? Um, Syd—he never was a member. You’re putting too much emphasis on Armstrong…
“Peace Peace!” they cry.
Meredith lies. Proof:
Remember, at the Feast in 1998, Mr. Meredith assured everyone, “There has never been more peace and harmony on the Council and in the church.” Just six weeks later, the church was in deep crisis, and split. Of course, this time I hope many will see the issue is about whether we will stand for true doctrine.
As if we needed it.
As if we can trust Syd…
Hull vs. Thiel: Saturday Night Smack-down!
Hull also touches on something that I’ve thought many times: how odd that the LCG allows Bob Thiel to have a personal web site that focuses almost exclusively on religious issues. Why does the headquarters of LCG allow even one such website [like Thiel’s] to exist?
Brethren, consider. If the Internet were available during Mr. Armstrong’s time, would he have allowed ministers, never mind lay members, of the Worldwide Church of God to maintain their own websites? [...] Only in the Laodicean age, in which the people rule, would a lay member be permitted to create a website filled exclusively with outright nonsense. One is kidding himself if he believes this scenario would have existed during the Philadelphian age. Ask yourselves this big question: Why does the headquarters of LCG allow even one such website to exist? The thinking person will question why a leader and/or his headquarters will not rein in such a man.
“Why does the headquarters of LCG allow even one such website to exist?” Indeed. (I expect Mr. Thiel might possibly touch on this on his own site. Why not here? At the very least, answer that question on your own site!)
Hull shows once again that the XCGs are all about control. Control of every aspect of members’ lives. Even self-expression.
In the end, it just shows the desparation of the LCG reality and the blindness of XCGs. Hull’s letter gives all the reasons why one shouldn’t join any XCG.
I for one thoroughly enjoyed Mr. Apartian’s sermon. He went through a lot of basics and fundamental things regarding the Kingdom of God and that’s NEVER a bad thing to hear constantly.
It’s also good for a minister who didn’t want to take the time to think of something original. That’s the beauty of being a minister in the XCGs—people “thoroughly enjoy” hearing the same thing over and over again, so it saves a lot of work.
And really, who wants to work for the paycheck anyway?
I swear, that name in this situation is just so pregnant with possibility. I should come up with another one, just for the Hull of it, but I won’t. One question Gavin raises is whether or not Apostle Dave will bump Hull down to minister.
Hull accepts Pack’s self-promotion to apostle:
RCG has upheld true apostolic Christianity, already brought by Mr. Armstrong, an apostle, and this is being continued by one holding the same office!
Since he’s spoken openly about it, I’m assuming Apostle Dave will let Hull keep his position. Buckblog at “It’s a Paul’s World” has mentioned this too. He writes, “I think we would all be better off not attempting to poach people from other’s organizations and showing great glee when someone decides to change affiliations.” Well said.
This is indeed the prime reason, I suspect, that Pack raised himself to apostle (other than the obvious—ego fellatio). When boring his congregation to tears with his ten-day sermon justifying his promotion, he postulated, “What will happen if an evangelist comes with us?” Given the nonsense going on in the African LCG community, he probably new there was a possibility. Certainly Hull was corresponding with Pack long before any of this went down, so Pack could have sensed the rumblings some time ago.
This is the third minister to leave the LCG for the RCG in the last 18 months or so. Is it somehow proof of the rumors we’ve been hearing about Spanky’s fleeting grip on reality?
As an aside, it’s interesting to note that Pack directed everyone to Hull’s “personal web site” for more information. It obviously was a free account set up simply to post his letter to the LCG members, but it’s interesting that it’s not on the RCG site.
Similarly, when Mr. Mendiola left, we were invited to email him directly if we had any questions:
For those wanting to know why he and his wife made this decision (as have so many others), you may contact Mr. Mendiola: mendiomark@yahoo.com.
It’s a common mistake. I used to do that a lot as a kid. I thought I was being so good, diligently saving my second tithe from my allowance and then putting it in the little offering envelopes, rationing it out so I’d have enough through the whole holy day season.
It wasn’t until I was in high school, with a job, that my father told me that he’d been letting something slide, and then explained the difference between holy day offerings and second tithe.
“You mean I’m supposed to give 10% of my meager earnings and then take something more off the top of that?!” I thought. I’m not sure how I handled it. I don’t think I changed it significantly.
It does indeed seem as if I’m not the only one who’s ever done it. Infinity, over at Infinite Blogging, writes,
I’m a horrible, horrible person.
I discovered today that I’ve been giving offerings wrong for the last 22 years. So much for growing up in the church and “knowing everything.” (Infinite Blogging)
I see Ron Kelly is now a minister with UCG. Interesting as he was in WCG for so long. I remember out at LCG HQ before they moved to Charlotte that Spanky was courting Ron during the spring ministerial conference. Spanky said afterward that Kelly was just trying to get a paycheck, and Spanky was not going to hire him. After all Ron Kelly said during the years from 1993 until recently in the Worldwide News and his sermons after 1995 show him to be two faced and very much the hypocritical type that Herb would have been proud of.
It’s the first I’ve heard of it, though, admittedly, seeking the latest XCG scoops hasn’t been a big priority.
Thoughts?
Update
Buckblog has pointed out in a comment that this is not the Ron Kelly from WCG, but not everyone seems to have caught that first comment.
The question on everyone’s mind (everyone who ever took an interest in the Nation of Islam) is the effect the eventual passing of Louis Farrakhan will have on the group. Will it splinter into States of Islam or Counties of Islam, or will it somehow manage to pull through?
It’s already survived the passing of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad, believed to be the Jewish Messiah and Muslim Mahdi all wrapped into one. It also survived the death of W. F. Muhammad’s successor, Elijah Muhammad.
When should you consider ordaining a deacon in a congregation?
The WCG considered it a general rule that there should be 50 people for a deacon to take care of. The PCG has few congregations of 50 people, and we have varied this somewhat, but it should still be factored into the decision. Also, as a general rule, there should be a local church elder for every 100 people. In this too, perhaps there would be exceptions. (3 December 2004 PGR)
Few congregations of 50 people? That sounds like a big congregation today’s WCG.
HWA had no intention of ever fleeing. His old body couldn’t handle any sort of roughing it—and anything short of Steuben crystal and fine china would have been roughing it for him.
Unlike in his normal lists, Dave only mentions a couple of items. The reason they’ll be needing a new building any day now is because they might want a landscaping/gardening/maintenance department.
Weinland seems to be greatly worried about legitimizing himself as one of the Two Witnesses. Imagine that. 
In the section about Snowbird, the brochure gushes,
